Anyone use vocal processing ?

[Methos1979]

Originally Posted by Laughingboy68

When you say you don't use any of the other processing, I hope you don't mean the "tone" button. It adds a bit of nice eq, a touch of compression and some de-essing. I've yet to hear anyone whose tone wasn't improved.

Mike

We tried the 'Tone' button and it did not do anything good for my wife's voice. In fact, we didn't like the result at all. To her credit, she's got a pretty darn good voice!

[slewis]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Unlike some, I won't judge you.

Uh, you already quite clearly did, hunter. Not that I care; judge away. Why I'd care about your opinion, or anyone about mine, is beyond me.

And laughing boy, please refresh my memory where I called anyone talentless. I said that the use of machines that "fix" things for performers, like "pitch correction" for off-notes, is a real turn-off for me, and yes, I suggested that if one relies on that kind of thing to get to acceptable-performance level, well, maybe performing isn't their thing. (There are people who don't have talent, you know.) I never said that people who use them don't have talent.

And Capt. Jim, I don't think anyone would think your song doesn't sound as good without the harmony. It's a performer using a machine to replace a human voice that I don't care for. Again, I don't know why anyone would care about my opinion, though. (We're just discussing an issue here, I thought!)

Ay yi yi... Done. Have a great evening!

[bbrunskill]

Moving away from the topic of ‘Is it cheating’, I’ve got this to add . . .

Most of these units have built in compression, even if they don’t have a compression control, they usually compress fairly heavily to get a strong signal into the autotune part of the unit.

This compression is pretty good if you don’t have a sound tech or decent sound tools, but if you do, it becomes a problem. The sound tech doesn’t have any control over compression, maybe even over basic EQ, and therefore he may not be able to do his job and make the vocal sound good in the room.

In addition, compressed sounds are far more likely to feedback than non-compressed signals, so if feedback is an issue, it will get far worse if you add a harmoniser.

I recommend that if your sound NEEDS a vocal harmoniser, have two mics on the same stand and sing into the good sounding, dry mic for your dry parts, and the FX mic for your harmony parts.

I’m sure someone is going to argue the point with me here, but before I finish I’ll say this - I’ve done about 50 gigs this year as a sound tech and every single time someone uses a harmoniser, I have problems. I can always get it to work, but I know it could be better done with a wet and a dry mic.

[Laughingboy68]

Originally Posted by slewis

And effects that add harmonies to vocals are just a step behind pitch correction in my book in the gag department. Having a machine singing along with you is not making music, folks, and yes, it's cheating. Why stop at vocals? Might as well add a drum machine, a bass machine and a string quartet machine! Frankly, I wouldn't listen to any musician using either device if I could help it. Too old-school for many, I'm sure, but it's pretty sad to see the art and talent of making music slowly being replaced by electronic gizmos.

You may not have used the word "talentless" but that was the impression I got from the above statement. Pretty tough not to answer this if one were to use a tool that falls in your "gag department".

Sean, understand that there isn't any venom here. I haven't seen anyone judge your choices. What people have done is point out that technological tools are just that (amps, capos, mics, reverb, compression, loopers, harmonizers) they take your input and make it louder, change its pitch, even its dynamics, give it space...

I use all this stuff and I think you use all of it with the exception of the harmonizer. The harmonizer takes the pitch I sing and reproduces it in harmony according to what I play on the guitar. Trust me it can sound awful if not used well (like anything else) - but used with discretion in a limited way it doesn't usually bring about gagging. To me it's no different than using a slapback delay on a guitar signal. The guitarist didn't really play all those notes but the effect sure is cool. The gizmo isn't replacing talent - just making the most of it. No one is criticizing your use of a looper, just pointing out that it is another technological tool that enhances your performance. The end effect (which I think is really cool) is two guitars playing at the same time. The end effect with a harmonizer is two voices. If I use the reverse effect on my looper and digitally manipulate the signal, is that worthy of the "gag department"? Again we all sit somewhere on this spectrum of "purists and cheaters" - when really we're just trying to make some music that makes people happy.

The reason people answer your posts is because they disagree with the opinion you state (and sometimes the level of emphasis with which you state it). We care what your opinion is because this is a discussion forum. As I've said before, I respect the choices you (and anyone else) make to express your music; just hoping for the same in return. I apologize if you've found this thread frustrating due to anything I've said.

Mike

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by slewis

...

And Capt. Jim, I don't think anyone would think your song doesn't sound as good without the harmony. It's a performer using a machine to replace a human voice that I don't care for. Again, I don't know why anyone would care about my opinion, though. (We're just discussing an issue here, I thought!)

Ay yi yi... Done. Have a great evening!

Well, I think it doesn't sound as good without the harmony. I posted the link here so there is something beyond "the abstract"... not to make it a debate. I've played in bands, played in duos - the part I enjoyed the most was the harmonies. Strictly solo playing these days, and prior to adding the harmonizer years ago, I really missed having some harmony. I have frequently seen people come up near the mic to "see who else is singing."

That sound clip was recorded directly into the small mic on an iPad Mini (yes, I also use the Mini to hold songs and set lists ). Nothing fancy about it. I don't use pedals for effects. I do use a digital tuner (clip on or onboard) - sure beats the old days of using a tuning fork. I consider all these tools... just like the guitar with a pickup, a mic, an amp and PA... all tools. We all put time into picking the right guitar, the right strings, etc, etc... so that we get the sound we want to put out.

When the discussion here turns to using a processor or harmonizer, there will always be two camps, and I sure have no issue with that. It reminds me of the time, a couple years ago, I was playing for a group. The guy who organized it asked me if a couple could use my guitar and amp to do a couple songs... "Sure." It was pretty awful... they couldn't keep time with each other and their attempt at harmony was painful. After their first song, she looked at me and said, "Can't you press a button here to make us sound good?"

Oh, if it was only that easy.

Happy Holidays,
Jim

[kydave]

Machines needed to make your guitar playing/singing work at an acceptable level to be tolerated by a general audience are a crutch.

If you need them to make your guitar playing acceptable, go back to the woodshed. If you can't sing acceptably without them, don't sing publicly as a professional.

If, however, you are perfectly capable of playing a decent in tune guitar while you decently sing an in tune song through a dry mic, yet make a personal choice to color your performance with electronic effects - go for it... with the understanding that it turns some people off. But the hoi polloi won't care either way.

[Psalad]

Originally Posted by kydave

OK, after reading (and I can't believe this is still going on

If you are recording musicians together at the same time in one room with a pair of microphones, you are not "cheating." Everything... EVERYTHING else is performance enhancement... "cheating."

multitrack? What, you can't play it all at the same time and mix yourselves live? Where is your SKILL??

reverb? If you can't record in the right room, don't record AT ALL.

EQ? What, you don't know how to set your instrument up so it sounds right?

microphone? What, you can't PROJECT enough to fill a room?

Make your creative choices... limit your choices, or don't limit them.

Don't pretend you are being more pure when you don't use a harmonizer but you STILL rely on a pickup, reverb, EQ, preamp, etc. EVERYTHING is performance enhancement, nothing is pure.

You can pretend you are superior if you want, if that makes you feel better, but the older generation would laugh at you for needing all the crap you use... the expensive preamp, the Bose sound system. Or the use of overdubbing. Or comping. Etc.

IT IS ALL FAKE, and YOU are fake too most likely. The bar has moved over generations, but it's an artificial bar.

As I said make your creative choices, but really, don't kid yourself.

[GHS]

Feel better now?

[Karel]

Jee boys! Just noticed this thread today for the first time. Perused it somewhat superficially and was struck by the emotional tone it acquired along the line. Many of us are a one man band. The problem I have is that (although I feel in perfect harmony with myself) I can't sing harmonies with myself and I still do love them from time to time. Luckilly technology is not only a blessing in communication or medicine, but also in music. The VL3 was for me a great discovery because I can use it in a very subtle and natural way. Yesterday evening I had a small gig and many in the audience where happily surprised by what they heard. For me it adds music to music. This summer I recorded a Ron Sexsmith song in one take with a Røde 1A in front of my AER Compact 60. So voice, VL3-harmony and guitar are "live". Later on I added some strings - but of course that is technology too. Sorry...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a_Zt94yyIc. It is just an example; meanwhile I even know better how to dial in my VL3. Wish you all a happy 2015!

[R_Warner7]

Karel,

Nice job on that! The harmony was just right.

[guitargabor]

It's very disappointing to me to find so much BS and negative tone on this and many other internet forums.

don't we have enough negativity around?

Are not these forums a place where one could escape and enjoy some decent informative discussions?

Gabe

[McShepherd]

CaptainJim, your vocal reminds me of a dead-on for T-Bone Burnett!

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

Early on in this thread (post #16), I wrote about using a vocal harmonizer. It doesn't correct my singing - if I sing off key, so do the harmonies.

I haven't recorded myself... until yesterday. My wife asked me to record some of what I play, for her. Here's what a vocal harmonizer does...

https://soundcloud.com/captainjimb/im-your-captain

I've been playing for a lot of years; if someone here feels this is an "abomination," I'll be OK. I'm a big boy... managed to get by playing out for about 47 years before I found my way onto this forum.

I played this song once in a while before getting the harmonizer - I like it better with the harmony.

Captain Jim

I think the judicious way you've used the harmonizer for this song is spot on! Adds an element to the song that is IMO one of the essentials of its arrangement. In short, a very nice job on my favorite song from one of the guilty pleasure bands of my misbegotten youth. Now you're my Captain, Jim

[Glennwillow]

Folks,

I have closed this thread because I believe it was generating hard feelings, something the AGF is not about. I apologize to just about everyone for the many edits I made on so many posts from so many people here who I respect. But I made the edits to conform to rule #1, which is, BE NICE.

I understand the depth of feelings on this subject, but the BE NICE rule means that all of us need to filter our reactions for the good of the forum. Personal attacks are simply over the line.

Nevertheless, there were a lot of very good and interesting comments on this thread and I, as an old guy who has never used a harmonizer or pitch correction live, learned a few things.

Thanks,
Glenn