Question about Playing A major to F major and modes over each chord

[Hasbro]

The following example clip is Playing A major chord and A Mixolydian mode switching to F Major Chord and F Lydian Mode. I can see that these two modes are only one step apart. I can also understand that they are the D Major Scale falling back to C Major Scale - so major scales a whole step apart. I can also see that A major would be majoring the minor third chord of diatonic F Major. Why does this work and sound right, and what would be the borrowed chord - the F or the A, and of what?

I hear something reminiscent of Zeppelin's "Ten Years Gone" as I listen to the back and forth.



Thanks Gents!

[Hasbro]

correction to youtube link

[Hasbro]

https://youtu.be/MFN0w1MII30

Wow I can't make this work, sorry. Above is the link you'd paste into a browser

[Mystery123]

Originally Posted by Hasbro

https://youtu.be/MFN0w1MII30

Wow I can't make this work, sorry. Above is the link you'd paste into a browser

Here you go:

[rick-slo]

Starts A# chord
Scale starts on third note which would be A# Phrygian mode except there is a G# note played
So...I quit listening to it at this point.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Hasbro

The following example clip is Playing A major chord and A Mixolydian mode switching to F Major Chord and F Lydian Mode. I can see that these two modes are only one step apart. I can also understand that they are the D Major Scale falling back to C Major Scale - so major scales a whole step apart. I can also see that A major would be majoring the minor third chord of diatonic F Major. Why does this work and sound right

You've pretty much just answered that yourself : you're using modes that are as closely related as you can make them (given the two different chords).

In fact, there is a more obscure scale which could produce both chords: F harmonic major: F G A Bb C Db E. Db would act as C# when combined with A and E. Lots of fun with that one!

Originally Posted by Hasbro

, and what would be the borrowed chord - the F or the A, and of what?

Depends which you hear as (or make) the tonal centre.
F is bVI of A major (not uncommon). In F major, A major would normally have a leading function, resolving to Dm or Bb, so going back to F would be unusual.
IOW, in F major, the usual interpretation of an A major would be "V/vi", a secondary dominant. That's not the case in A major, where F is just a borrowed chord from the parallel minor, with no function relative to any other chord.

Originally Posted by Hasbro

I hear something reminiscent of Zeppelin's "Ten Years Gone" as I listen to the back and forth.

Yes, that's key of A major, with F (or rather Dm/F) as the borrowed chord.
In the second part of the intro, you hear the common usage of the minor iv chord, in the descending line G-F#-F-E, where G is harmonised with A7, F# with D, and F with Dm (or F).
(The modal concept you could apply here is "mode mixture". Not modes as separate scales - because the chords don't last long enough - but chords drawn (by implication) from different modes on the same keynote, within one overall key.)

[Hasbro]

JohnPR, sorry I didn't see your reply earlier than today.

Thanks for helping me understand this stuff! exciting for me to understand more clearly how often and easy it is to mix modes and create something unique sounding in the process. Im going to post a clip of a recorded original Im playing with this concept at some point today when I can grab a guitar and get away for a few minutes. Thanks again!

[Hasbro]

This is the original using some of the idea discussed above (still in infancy, incomplete)

[Hasbro]

Originally Posted by JonPR

You've pretty much just answered that yourself : you're using modes that are as closely related as you can make them (given the two different chords).

In fact, there is a more obscure scale which could produce both chords: F harmonic major: F G A Bb C Db E. Db would act as C# when combined with A and E. Lots of fun with that one!
Depends which you hear as (or make) the tonal centre.
F is bVI of A major (not uncommon). In F major, A major would normally have a leading function, resolving to Dm or Bb, so going back to F would be unusual.
IOW, in F major, the usual interpretation of an A major would be "V/vi", a secondary dominant. That's not the case in A major, where F is just a borrowed chord from the parallel minor, with no function relative to any other chord.
Yes, that's key of A major, with F (or rather Dm/F) as the borrowed chord.
In the second part of the intro, you hear the common usage of the minor iv chord, in the descending line G-F#-F-E, where G is harmonised with A7, F# with D, and F with Dm (or F).
(The modal concept you could apply here is "mode mixture". Not modes as separate scales - because the chords don't last long enough - but chords drawn (by implication) from different modes on the same keynote, within one overall key.)

Mode mixture, right? Even if ever so brief going from the Bb in one riff and the B in another? (both feeling home as a-minor chord)

[Hasbro]

Sorry on sound cloud link, forgot to edit my duff on the first attempted pass!

Sent from my SM-G860P using Tapatalk

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Hasbro

Mode mixture, right? Even if ever so brief going from the Bb in one riff and the B in another? (both feeling home as a-minor chord)

Well, if it's a very brief out-of-key note, you might need to invoke mode mixture to explain it. Mode mixture involves whole chords, not just brief chromatic notes in melodies or riffs. Blues and jazz are full of chromaticism that doesn't necessarily imply mode mixture.

Within a normal key-based tune (major or minor), any of the 5 chromatics can be used as passing notes at any time, either in melodies, or as chord alterations to produce interesting voice-leading. (Sometimes the latter involves mode mixture, but often not.)
A nice (seasonal!) example is White Christmas, where the opening melodic phrase is a whole run of half-steps: 3 diatonic notes and 2 chromatics. In key of C it would be E-F-E-D#-E-F-F#-G. The chromatics could be harmonized with a couple of functional chords, but usually they're treated as approaches to chord tones (a common thing in jazz and blues soloing); i.e., the D# kind of slides up to the E (on a C chord), and the F# slides into the G (G chord).

OTOH, a diatonic melody note can be harmonised with a chromatic chord, which often is mode mixture. An old example in pop is Buddy Holly's Peggy Sue, where the bridge melody is one note (A in key of A), "Peggy Sue, Peggy Sue, pretty pretty pretty pretty Peggy Sue" and the harmony moves from A major to F major (on the "pretty"s) and back. The F is borrowed from A minor. The A could obviously have been harmonized with other diatonic chords (D, F#m), so he clearly chose the borrowed chord for its element of dramatic surprise, not for any functional voice-leading reasons.

The