Theory - WWHWWWH - Chord construction and more

[WonderMonkey]

Originally Posted by jseth

Well, all of your "stuff" is well and good, although EXTREMELY confusing for the beginner, I should think...

And I have to point out one common error/misconception in your "chord scales" that several have ascribed to and no one else has caught or commented upon...

That is, that the VII chord is either a HALF DIMINISHED chord or a b7minor 7 chord... it is NOT a full diminished chord... may seem trivial at first, but "down the road" it will serve you well to have this ingrained in your little brain!

Though I play diminished chords because a song says to do it and I look up how to form the chord, I really haven't "gotten to" it yet. I'm sure I will soon, and I'll revisit this post.

[WonderMonkey]

I'm going back and forth on learning a bit of theory while also learning a bit of playing. I'm trying real hard to not get ahead of myself and dwell on things.

Today in my "Flatpicking Essentials" we are getting into the bass notes and I'm able to follow along and do the homework "Find root chord.... or find I-IV-V of the C, D, F, A key, etc"

So far I'm not lost nor do I expect to be anytime in the next few weeks. Or maybe in this book I'll be able to follow along and spending too much time working theory won't get me anything. In this book anyway.

[LSemmens]

Originally Posted by WonderMonkey

Below I did the majors, but somehow I forgot to do B. I'll put that in later. It's kind of what JonPR did but I like his better. Also he did the maj7's which I'll add in time.

Just as a point on your list there. If you are playing in the Key of A you are NOT going to have a Db, Gb, or Ab anywhere in your scale, they will ALWAYS be C#, F# and G#. In any scale the note is only ever used once which is why when you get to the F major scale the A# is now a Bb.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by WonderMonkey

I like that chart. I made a version of the top one and I see you copied it and added the 7th.

Well, I made them both myself, years ago, but great minds think alike...

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by WonderMonkey

EDIT: I'm beginning to think that I can't use the CO5 to replace the Note Circle. I think the CO5 is all about finding what key something is in and easily looking for the 5th's and 4th's. I see the staff thingy there which would help me look at a piece of music and see the key if I could not look at the chords in the song and figure it out (I can't, yet). The notes in the inner circle are still a mystery to me and I'm not going to focus on it just yet.

The inside circle shows the relative minor keys, which share the same key signature.

But there is another handy way of using the CO5 to find the chords in a key (major keys anyway).

Pick a key - say E. That's the tonic (I). The IV chord is anticlockwise (A), and the V chord is clockwise (B). Inside those three are the three minor chords in the key: C#m (vi), F#m (ii),G#m (iii).

You miss the vii of course, but nobody uses that anyway!

There is a commercial device (now an app) which capitalised on that adaptation: http://www.chordwheel.com

Just to clarify on the dim chord, btw:

The vii chord in a major key is a dim triad. Add a 7th, it becomes a m7b5, or "half-diminished" chord. This chord is rarely used as vii in the major key, however, but is everywhere in jazz as the ii in the relative minor. E.g., you won't see Bm7b5 (B-D-F-A) going to C (well hardly ever), but you will see it going to E7 and then Am.

The "dim7" (or full diminished) comes from the vii degree of harmonic minor. B-D-F-Ab = Bdim7, from key of C minor. Bdim7 will often resolve directly to Cm, and can be "borrowed" to resolve to C major.

Some jazz folk see Bdim7 as a rootless G7b9 (it functions in the same way, resolving to Cm), but there's no need for that. Dim7s (viio chords) are proper chords in their own right.

[WonderMonkey]

Originally Posted by JonPR

The inside circle shows the relative minor keys, which share the same key signature.

But there is another handy way of using the CO5 to find the chords in a key (major keys anyway).

Pick a key - say E. That's the tonic (I). The IV chord is anticlockwise (A), and the V chord is clockwise (B). Inside those three are the three minor chords in the key: C#m (vi), F#m (ii),G#m (iii).

You miss the vii of course, but nobody uses that anyway!

There is a commercial device (now an app) which capitalised on that adaptation: http://www.chordwheel.com

Just to clarify on the dim chord, btw:

The vii chord in a major key is a dim triad. Add a 7th, it becomes a m7b5, or "half-diminished" chord. This chord is rarely used as vii in the major key, however, but is everywhere in jazz as the ii in the relative minor. E.g., you won't see Bm7b5 (B-D-F-A) going to C (well hardly ever), but you will see it going to E7 and then Am.

The "dim7" (or full diminished) comes from the vii degree of harmonic minor. B-D-F-Ab = Bdim7, from key of C minor. Bdim7 will often resolve directly to Cm, and can be "borrowed" to resolve to C major.

Some jazz folk see Bdim7 as a rootless G7b9 (it functions in the same way, resolving to Cm), but there's no need for that. Dim7s (viio chords) are proper chords in their own right.

Thanks for that. Maybe I'll use my note wheel and also the CO5 to do the same job while I'm doing these simple things just to get used to the CO5 and go from there.

By the way JonPR, did you ever hang out on Guitar.com years ago? I seem to recognize your username from somewhere.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by WonderMonkey

Thanks for that. Maybe I'll use my note wheel and also the CO5 to do the same job while I'm doing these simple things just to get used to the CO5 and go from there.

By the way JonPR, did you ever hang out on Guitar.com years ago? I seem to recognize your username from somewhere.

I did indeed hang out there, I think I was plain JonR back then.

[WonderMonkey]

Originally Posted by JonPR

I did indeed hang out there, I think I was plain JonR back then.

Yes, I do recall that. I was on there way back when I was able to play more. There was a group which broke away and started a small board when g.com was invaded and lots of nasty images were posted. I still speak to a few of them to this day. Probably a few user names that you would recognize.