What the heck? I thought bridge pins didn't make any difference...

[jtaylor996]

So I've been having some pin issues, mainly with the low E, and as a first step I replaced my old crappy plastic pins with a set of these (mystery black wood) pins:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They seem to have fixed 90% of the issue I was having (that low E pin still lifts a little, but now just a mm or so), and they are actually pretty high quality and look great on my '93 J-60.

But I'll be darned if it doesn't sound significantly different. I've been firmly in the camp that pins don't matter as long as they work. However, these seem to have taken some crispness out of the bottom 3 strings (and a ton out of that low E).

Is this common?

If so, what kinds of pins are not plastic, but brighter than this ebony looking stuff? I'm a bluegrass flatpicker, and I need those bottom two strings to not be muddy.

[jbeecham]

Bone pins! You might talk to bob colosi.

Jerry

[bellgamin]

bone. brass.

[frankhond]

It says ”ebony” in the link. Ebony pins are not uncommon, some manufacturers use it as default. It shouldn’t make that much of a difference, although ebony is advertised as having a warmer sound than, say, bone.

If there is a big difference, I would first suspect the strings (are they new/old, the same brand etc). Then whether the ball ends are properly seated. Do the new pins fit well in the slot?

If you want to try different pins, get tusq or bone. Brass is a specialty thing that most people don’t need.

[ChalkLitIScream]

Add mass.
Bone, ivory, horn, brass or any other denser material.
Adding mass tends to increase trebele response and the perception of a brighter sound

[Athens]

Yes, bridge pins absolutely "may" make a difference.

I've swapped bridge pins out on guitars for years and most of the time there is a difference. Sometimes the tone is better, other times not. But, in most cases, it is different.

Almost all guitars that I've replaced plastic with bone or ebony have improved. Strangely, the vintage Guild's that I've replaced with other materials always sounded worse, but putting the original plastic Guild pins in brought it back. Kinda makes you wonder what secret mojo Guild put in those pins.

You'll have to decide if you like the tone you hear, but it's a cheap experiment and easily reversed if you don't like the result.

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by jtaylor996

So I've been having some pin issues, mainly with the low E, and as a first step I replaced my old crappy plastic pins with a set of these (mystery black wood) pins:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They seem to have fixed 90% of the issue I was having (that low E pin still lifts a little, but now just a mm or so), and they are actually pretty high quality and look great on my '93 J-60.

But I'll be darned if it doesn't sound significantly different. I've been firmly in the camp that pins don't matter as long as they work. However, these seem to have taken some crispness out of the bottom 3 strings (and a ton out of that low E).

Is this common?

If so, what kinds of pins are not plastic, but brighter than this ebony looking stuff? I'm a bluegrass flatpicker, and I need those bottom two strings to not be muddy.

I'm not sure how you formulated your opinion, but anytime mass is changed, even very slight amounts, a perceivable change in tone will be heard. The ability to hear slight changes is generally only noticeable to those with either sophisticated ears or someone such as yourself who is intimately knowledgeable of that particular instrument. But ya, you can change the tone with different types of pins because the different pins weight and the way the material couples with the bridge area once seated can and does effect tone.

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by jtaylor996

They seem to have fixed 90% of the issue I was having (that low E pin still lifts a little, but now just a mm or so)

You may have to push a pin in a second time after tuning, especially a thick string, because the straightening of the string in the pin hole might cause the pin to pop upwards.

If you incorrectly use a slotted pin in a slotted bridge, the ball of the string might slip into the bridgeplate pin hole causing the pin to pop.

If the pin is the correct type and size and has the correct taper and the ball of the string is seated hard against the bridgeplate and the pin is pushed in sufficiently, but not hard, a pin should not lift.

[jessupe]

About this; pins and the material they are made of, besides most likely weighing different based on dissimilar materials having different mass values and besides the variation within the same material {not all bone pins of the same size weigh the same amount for example} one must be aware of the following physics related to "bung hole coupling"

Bung hole coupling is understanding the physics behind a mechanical lock being created by a tapered pin/shaft being inserted into a tapered hole and how when they are pushed into each other and seated the friction lock that holds the pin into the hole in essence joins or couples the two dissimilar materials, or in essence you have used a mechanical friction lock to create a polymer substance, or two dissimilar materials have been joined to create one "hybrid" material, in most cases wood and ...something, wood and bone, wood and plastic,wood and brass, wood and fossil and on and on with all the different materials.

again the mass or weight is the majority of the noticeable tone change, but on a more microscopic level related to frequency travel, dissemination, radiation and damping the polymer that you "construct"by coupling two different materials can also have a slight notable effect on tone, may be good, may be bad, generally in the eye of the beholder

So when you change your pins, your really being a chemist who is creating dry fit polymers that change the way things sound, because everyone knows that sound will not vibrate and travel though a piece of bone the same way it would a plastic pin, in the same way that it will not vibrate the same through two different pieces of EIR even though it is the same material beacuse when it comes down to it, everything is different, even when its the same

[jtaylor996]

Originally Posted by frankhond

It says ”ebony” in the link. Ebony pins are not uncommon, some manufacturers use it as default. It shouldn’t make that much of a difference, although ebony is advertised as having a warmer sound than, say, bone.

If there is a big difference, I would first suspect the strings (are they new/old, the same brand etc). Then whether the ball ends are properly seated. Do the new pins fit well in the slot?

If you want to try different pins, get tusq or bone. Brass is a specialty thing that most people don’t need.

They fit well. The Low E rides about 1mm above the saddle, but I think I may have an issue with that hole in the bridge plate causing that.

Same strings. I changed them a few days ago, and then swapped the pins last night. Played it with old pins, and then new on the same night, same strings.

[jtaylor996]

Originally Posted by jessupe

I'm not sure how you formulated your opinion, but anytime mass is changed, even very slight amounts, a perceivable change in tone will be heard. The ability to hear slight changes is generally only noticeable to those with either sophisticated ears or someone such as yourself who is intimately knowledgeable of that particular instrument. But ya, you can change the tone with different types of pins because the different pins weight and the way the material couples with the bridge area once seated can and does effect tone.

How much does weight matter when I rest my palm on the pins anyways (whilst anchoring my pinky)? I would guess any pressure difference there would swamp any weight difference in bridge pins, which might total a few grams for a set of 6.

[jtaylor996]

Originally Posted by guitar george

You may have to push a pin in a second time after tuning, especially a thick string, because the straightening of the string in the pin hole might cause the pin to pop upwards.

If you incorrectly use a slotted pin in a slotted bridge, the ball of the string might slip into the bridgeplate pin hole causing the pin to pop.

If the pin is the correct type and size and has the correct taper and the ball of the string is seated hard against the bridgeplate and the pin is pushed in sufficiently, but not hard, a pin should not lift.

It was quite a bit worse than pushing the pin in a second time. I believe the bridge plate hole may be boogered up allowing the ball to wedge in there with the pin. with worn out plastic pins, there's a lot more room in there for the ball to get up there, which is why I needed new pins.

I need to put a mirror in to check the plate out, but so far new pins seem to be making it a non issue. I guess it's not to the point of being worth repairing right now.

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by jtaylor996

How much does weight matter when I rest my palm on the pins anyways (whilst anchoring my pinky)? I would guess any pressure difference there would swamp any weight difference in bridge pins, which might total a few grams for a set of 6.

I think anchoring and palm muting obviously effect tone and they could be considered playing techniques that will effect tone, but I assume there are periods of your playing where sometimes the instrument is ringing free and when you are this is when you will really notice the sound differences, which again can be very slight generally

Aside from that when you do have your hand contacting the bridge area you are making a tri polymer made from the bridge material, the pins, and your flesh which will be dependent on the pressure or downforce you apply, which translates to damping and friction contact somewhat based on your skin type and the fleshyness or bonyness of your particular hand

along these linesback in the day there was a violin teacher Mala Bang, who was a student of Leopold Auer, a Student of Paganini. She wrote a book on playing the violin, this book was written prior to the mass adoption of the chin/shoulder rest's that we see today. the student was instructed to use a soft cloth in the nodal region {nodal means area that does not really vibrate} where the chin rests on the violin top near the butt end, and then on the underside the student was instructed to have the back of the violin poised so it was "coupled" to the collarbone, in essence making it so when the violist would breathe PROPERLY and fill their lungs with air during certain passages , that the vibrations would travel into the violinists upper torso area in essence allowing the vibrations to pass into the collar bone area, into the air filled torso and in essence be used as an "effect" that could add perceptible depth to the tone to a close listener, back when live music was the thing.

[muscmp]

every little thing adds up, some more than others. it is your sound that matters.

play music!

[KarenB]

There are guitars w/o pins at all. I wonder how that effects tone?