Humidifiers Can Be Dangerous!

[fazool]

Avoid putting them in cases. Cases are dangerous. (I'm being contrarian here to make a point - read the end part of my post)

You cannot accurately monitor or control the humidity and it will fluctuate in the case. Every time you open the case, you've just exchanged the case's humidified air with the room's dry air, and closed it back up so your guitar is being subjected to small volume rapid fluctuations.

Also, you have no real way of knowing the humidity inside the case (without a remote digital probe) so you cannot truly monitor and are never actually measuring the humidity in the guitar's environment.

Think of a small room or a closet like a gigantic "case". It's a closed volume, the guitars are safely cradled inside, there is a hygrometer in that environment that you can read from within the environment, the air volume is larger so there is a bigger buffer to sudden changes.

I hate when people unilaterally say cases are "safer" without understanding the science.

The issue is only about how much humidification capacity you have.

If you have a means to humidify the whole house, then THAT is the safest place
If you only have enough capacity to humidify a room, then THAT is the safest place
If you only have enough capacity to humidify a closet, then THAT is the safest place
If you only have enough capacity to humidify a case, then THAT is the safest place

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by fazool

Avoid putting them in cases. Cases are dangerous. (I'm being contrarian here to make a point - read the end part of my post)

You cannot accurately monitor or control the humidity and it will fluctuate in the case. Every time you open the case, you've just exchanged the case's humidified air with the room's dry air, and closed it back up so your guitar is being subjected to small volume rapid fluctuations.

Also, you have no real way of knowing the humidity inside the case (without a remote digital probe) so you cannot truly monitor and are never actually measuring the humidity in the guitar's environment.

Think of a small room or a closet like a gigantic "case". It's a closed volume, the guitars are safely cradled inside, there is a hygrometer in that environment that you can read from within the environment, the air volume is larger so there is a bigger buffer to sudden changes.

I hate when people unilaterally say cases are "safer" without understanding the science.

The issue is only about how much humidification capacity you have.

If you have a means to humidify the whole house, then THAT is the safest place
If you only have enough capacity to humidify a room, then THAT is the safest place
If you only have enough capacity to humidify a closet, then THAT is the safest place
If you only have enough capacity to humidify a case, then THAT is the safest place

Hi all,

Thank you for your thoughts and observations. The guitars are hung on an outside wall which is cooler than the inside walls but not excessively. The room is maybe 11' x 11' and is carpeted.

The humidifier is a Vorndao Ultra3 Ultrasonic model. I liked it because you could set the humidity level you wanted and it would supposedly keep it there. Here's a link to it

https://www.vornado.com/shop/humidif...nic-humidifier

I have a separate hygrometer in the room. I found that the humidifier just kept going and didn't stop where it was set and would reach near 50% even though I had it set at 40%. Still it did keep the humidity in the room up. However I did have to refill it often and overnight it would run out and the dryness would return into the low 30s (or even lower into the mid 20s)

One day when I was in the room playing, I started to feel sort of sick and I realized it may have been because I was inhaling that cold direct vapor exuding from it. So I turned it off and eventually turned it around not thinking it was pointed at the Gibson.

There is no doubt in my mind the damage was caused by the humidifier blowing on the Gibson (because the only damaged spot on the guitar is where the vapor mist was directed at it). I don't know the science but I've read a few good theories here (temperature or humidity fluctuations or both?).

All of the other guitars in the room are okay. My prized guitar has always been in the case. So I guess I'm a believer on both sides as to whether our guitars should be in our out of their cases. I'd always heard from Taylor and others to keep them in their case, but I found I really enjoy having the guitars out where I can see them, so I didn't listen! However, I believe Fazool really makes a great point here that it's the environment and not the space.

To throw salt on the wound, I went in this morning and the humidifier had died. So its last act wasn't a kind one.

My conclusion, if you keep the guitars out and your whole house humidifier doesn't exist or isn't adequate, get a large capacity room humidifier. Don't try and keep up with refilling a smaller one as the levels will fluctuate. And don't have it blow directly on your guitar!

As for refinishing or not I am really up in the air. I'm not sure the guitar has more mojo from the cracks. It almost look like I let it lie down in my basement on the floor for several years. I was thinking maybe a face lift and overall re-tune may be the way to go. Maybe I'll get another 45 years out of it! I can't decide what to do!!

[edward993]

Your final assessments are right:
1. room humidifier should not blow directly onto any guitar.
2. Hygrometer should be mounter on the wall where the guitars are. That’s the area that you’re controlling.
3. Don’t rely on auto features. It doesn’t take but a second to glance at the hygrometer from day to day ...that’s more reliable.

Sorry for your malady but it could have been worse.

Edward

[RustyAxe]

Maybe I've been living under a rock, but I've never seen finish checking as a result of humidification (or lack of). Only as a result of extreme and rapid temperature change, and sometimes physical shock. And I doubt the difference between the air coming out of the unit, and the surface temperature of a hanging guitar are that far apart.

[Kip Carter]

GB... I have continued to follow this thread after my earlier comments.

I’d like to follow up with my own observation of you and your beloved.

In short my recommendation would be to correct your humidification issues, then give your gal a new doo!

Keeping it the way it is doesn’t represent mojo. It now and evermore will serve as a reminder that you messed up and scared her.

Stripping off the old makeup and applying a fresh doo will in a short while allow you to forget and forgive yourself for the gap in judgment. Allowing both of you to grow old together.

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by Kip Carter

GB... I have continued to follow this thread after my earlier comments.

I’d like to follow up with my own observation of you and your beloved.

In short my recommendation would be to correct your humidification issues, then give your gal a new doo!

Keeping it the way it is doesn’t represent mojo. It now and evermore will serve as a reminder that you messed up and scared her.

Stripping off the old makeup and applying a fresh doo will in a short while allow you to forget and forgive yourself for the gap in judgment. Allowing both of you to grow old together.

Thanks for the words of advice Kip. I decided last evening that I agree with you. I took Kh1967's advice and have contacted Marc Babin at Babin Guitars
about having it made up all nice and pretty!! I'm waiting to hear back.

My regular guitar tech suggested I not do it from the standpoint of de-valuing vintage guitars. However, this guitar has never appreciated much. And since I've had it since I was a kid I'd never sell it anyway. It has always played and sounded like a million bucks. Of the many many guitars I've purchased over the years I've never found one that my wife liked more than this one. Anyway, I may regret it some day but I think I am going to take the plunge and get it fixed so I won't have to remember my stupidity every time I look at it!

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

Thanks for the words of advice Kip. I decided last evening that I agree with you. I took Kh1967's advice and have contacted Marc Babin at Babin Guitars
about having it made up all nice and pretty!! I'm waiting to hear back.

My regular guitar tech suggested I not do it from the standpoint of de-valuing vintage guitars. However, this guitar has never appreciated much. And since I've had it since I was a kid I'd never sell it anyway. It has always played and sounded like a million bucks. Of the many many guitars I've purchased over the years I've never found one that my wife liked more than this one. Anyway, I may regret it some day but I think I am going to take the plunge and get it fixed so I won't have to remember my stupidity every time I look at it!

Good choice IMO.

I am firmly in the camp that believes there is no such thing as "mojo".

Rust and dents on my cars don't remind me of the good times we had together. They sadden me that my car is damaged.

I think the concept of "mojo" is a construct to help people come to terms with damage.

That big ol' dent in my fender that looks awful? Well, yeah that was from that time we were at the beach and I backed into a tree. Man them was good times.

And that big rusty scrape on the hood? Yeah, that was when we had that big windstorm and the shopping cart flipped up over my hood. Woo-wee, I'm glad that's there to keep those memories fresh. Man this car's got MOJO!

To me (and only me) the only thing worse than proclaiming the positive aspects of "mojo" is artificially creating it. Man my new Lexus looks like stupid! I'm a throw some battery acid on the side and toss a garbage can at the windshield...Man, then that car will look nice!

[chitz]

In my 10 years on this forum, (& others) I have never heard of checking caused by humidity.

First time for everything I suppose. Wishing the OP the best.

[Marshall]

Haven't read everything.

ButI think the crazing is not just humidity issues. The good news is the dark marks are humidity getting through the crazing cracks and darkening the wood. They will dry out eventually and not be so visible.

Is the guitar hang on an inside wall ? Or an outside wall?

AN outside wall is an awful place. It is where the outside cold and inside warmth are fighting their hardest battle. Not a good place for a delicate peice of wood.

The darkening of the craze cracks means water vapor is getting through the finish and soaking into the wood. The guitar is likely at a lower temperature than the room air; ESPECIALLY if it's an outside wall. So the water is not just in vapor form, but is condensing into liquid. Never a good thing to have liquid water on bare wood.

It's a battle. Drying out the wood will lighten the cracks. But dry wood also warps more. It's a battle. But just tough it out.

I vote AGAINST refinishing a vintage guitar. They go DOWN in value when you do.

Dry it out a little and keep playing.

(No outside walls !)

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

Anyway, I may regret it some day but I think I am going to take the plunge and get it fixed so I won't have to remember my stupidity every time I look at it!

You'll remember it either way - checked original finish or shiny new finish. I'd never even consider refinishing a 45 year old guitar because of something like this. My advice is to live with it for 6 months or so then decide. Once the original finish is gone it's gone forever.

In my own case, I recently suffered some finish checking due to the cold. I'd transported other guitars literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of times in similar conditions and never had a problem until now. I took it inside after the trip and didn't open it until morning, and there it was...significant finish checks on the top. No other damage. Even though the guitar is not very old, I wouldn't dream of refinishing it, for a number of reasons not the least of which is how good it sounds and plays. A complete refinish means pulling the neck and bridge, both of which carry some risk. It's just part of the guitar's story now.

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by fazool

Good choice IMO.

I am firmly in the camp that believes there is no such thing as "mojo".

Rust and dents on my cars don't remind me of the good times we had together. They sadden me that my car is damaged.

I think the concept of "mojo" is a construct to help people come to terms with damage.

That big ol' dent in my fender that looks awful? Well, yeah that was from that time we were at the beach and I backed into a tree. Man them was good times.

And that big rusty scrape on the hood? Yeah, that was when we had that big windstorm and the shopping cart flipped up over my hood. Woo-wee, I'm glad that's there to keep those memories fresh. Man this car's got MOJO!

To me (and only me) the only thing worse than proclaiming the positive aspects of "mojo" is artificially creating it. Man my new Lexus looks like stupid! I'm a throw some battery acid on the side and toss a garbage can at the windshield...Man, then that car will look nice!

Ha ha ha, good one Fazool

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by edward993

Your final assessments are right:
1. room humidifier should not blow directly onto any guitar.
2. Hygrometer should be mounter on the wall where the guitars are. That’s the area that you’re controlling.
3. Don’t rely on auto features. It doesn’t take but a second to glance at the hygrometer from day to day ...that’s more reliable.

Sorry for your malady but it could have been worse.

Edward

Thanks Edward! I have learned these lessons and will add about not keeping the guitars on an outside wall as others mention.

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Maybe I've been living under a rock, but I've never seen finish checking as a result of humidification (or lack of). Only as a result of extreme and rapid temperature change, and sometimes physical shock. And I doubt the difference between the air coming out of the unit, and the surface temperature of a hanging guitar are that far apart.

Originally Posted by chitz

In my 10 years on this forum, (& others) I have never heard of checking caused by humidity.

First time for everything I suppose. Wishing the OP the best.

Thanks RustyAxe and Chitz. I believe you are both right. I think the air flow of the humidifier combined with the fact the guitar was hanging on an outside wall somehow changed a change in the temperature. The old, brittle finish couldn't take it.

Originally Posted by Marshall

Haven't read everything.

But I think the crazing is not just humidity issues. The good news is the dark marks are humidity getting through the crazing cracks and darkening the wood. They will dry out eventually and not be so visible........

I vote AGAINST refinishing a vintage guitar. They go DOWN in value when you do.

Dry it out a little and keep playing.

(No outside walls !)

Marshall I think this is an excellent observation. It's not so much the finish checking that's the most disturbing, but the dark lines in the cracks. If those dry up and go away over time the guitar would be a lot more bearable to look at.

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

You'll remember it either way - checked original finish or shiny new finish. I'd never even consider refinishing a 45 year old guitar because of something like this. My advice is to live with it for 6 months or so then decide. Once the original finish is gone it's gone forever.

In my own case, I recently suffered some finish checking due to the cold. I'd transported other guitars literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of times in similar conditions and never had a problem until now. I took it inside after the trip and didn't open it until morning, and there it was...significant finish checks on the top. No other damage. Even though the guitar is not very old, I wouldn't dream of refinishing it, for a number of reasons not the least of which is how good it sounds and plays. A complete refinish means pulling the neck and bridge, both of which carry some risk. It's just part of the guitar's story now.

Todd, another good suggestion. And I may have a six month wait for a repair opening as it is so I'll know.

I think I'm going to get it all shined up, put a set of new strings on it and play it for awhile and see how it's feeling (to play, hear and look at!).

Originally Posted by guitar george

Ha ha ha, good one Fazool

Those were good comments by Fazool and good arguments to refinish it.

Again, if this were a valuable vintage instrument I wouldn't consider a refinish. However, this is my long term, forever player guitar that one of my kids will get when I'm gone. My daughter told me today she'd never sell it either, so maybe it does make sense to get a complete restore?

[macmanmatty]

I would just like to add if your instruments need humidification put some aquarium(s) in the room with them. They will do the job nicely with any risk of water damage unless you store the instruments near them and they leak or spill .

[Grinning Boy]

My guitar damage problem prompted me to do some research on my guitar. I hadn't done that in many years if ever.

Anyway, I ran across this video of a guy playing his grandfather's 1972 model that had been completely restored. This is my identical guitar...I believe even the same year! However it's been restored and is looking a lot better than mine at the moment! I think I'd be happy if mine ended up like this restored! I think this makes a good case for restoration? Wouldn't it be like having a new guitar that's 45 years old!! I see value in all your comments on both sides to either restore or not.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3XMG1Ox2I0

[drplayer]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

I agree with you and Kip I should look into having it refinished.

Or not? Old guitars have stories, and every ding, scratch, bump and bruise is part of that story. These check marks are now part of your guitar's story...it is what is it. If it were mine, I might have it refinished if it was new(er); but, one with this much history? Nah. Nothing wrong with a few wrinkles...they show you've been somewhere. Just a different perspective.