Taylor Neck Reset - Which First: Neck Angle or Saddle Height?

[MarkF786]

I've been told that at the factory, Taylor installs a standard height saddle and then adjusts the neck angle to get the desired factory-spec action. The only problem with this approach is Taylor's standard saddle height is a mystery.

I bought a used Taylor with the saddles sanded way low, and it needs a neck reset. I spoke to an authorized Taylor repairman and he said he would adjust the neck angle first, using a straightedge along the neck and bridge, and then adjust the saddle height - but Taylor's tech support told me not to use this approach since it's unreliable. But since the saddle has already been sanded down, I don't know what height it should be to use as a starting point for adjusting the neck angle.

I would think this would be a common problem encountered by Taylor repairmen, and there would be a standard approach they were taught - "sand the saddle to x/y inches high, then adjust the neck angle for the desired action."

Are there any Taylor authorized repairmen here that could share how they do it? Does anyone know the factory saddle height? I found one person claim "saddle height on a factory Taylor is .360 in the center of the saddle" but never found it corroborated.

Thanks!

Mark

[Ned Milburn]

You should never just "sand the saddle to x inches high". Each guitar settles in differently and will need a different setup due to different players' playing styles.

Adjust the truss rod first to where it should be. Next, do the nut or saddle. (I do nut next, though some others prefer saddle first.) Once you are at proper neck bow adjustment, measure clearance of high E and Low E above the 12th fret and set up for the player who is to use the guitar. For a steel string, the range of height I use is usually between 1.75mm and 2.5 mm for high E, and 2.25 to 3.25 mm for the low E, depending upon the player's needs and the guitar's abilities (ie: a guitar with unlevel frets cannot have as low action as a level-fretted guitar due to excess buzzing that will manifest).

[MarkF786]

Thanks for the reply, Ned.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you adjust the saddle height before adjusting the neck angle - which I would tend to agree with.

So what general guidelines to do use when adjusting the saddle height? Should there be a certain amount of saddle sticking out above the top of the bridge?

Thanks,

Mark

[nate clark]

I did Taylor warranty work for years and the routine I came to use involves setting the neck angle to the A string. In other words, I set the neck according to the bridge which is essentially fixed rather than the saddle which is easily modified or replaced.

Because the bridge is flat and the fretboard is radiused you will generally have too much protrusion if you set the angle to the 6th string and too little if you set it to the D string. Check out the first few pics of my repair article to see what I'm talking about in more detail:

http://fingerlakesguitarrepair.com/taylor-neck-reset/

[nate clark]

Ooops, I originally posted the wrong URL, it's correct now.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by MarkF786

Thanks for the reply, Ned.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you adjust the saddle height before adjusting the neck angle - which I would tend to agree with.

So what general guidelines to do use when adjusting the saddle height? Should there be a certain amount of saddle sticking out above the top of the bridge?

Thanks,

Mark

Glad to help. I didn't write clearly. I prefer to prepare the nut before I prepare the saddle. For nut slots that are very close to final, it doesn't really matter what order. But for nut slots that are 1mm too high, for example (rare, but it does happen, especially on lower cost classical guitars), adjusting the saddle to proper action (height at 12th fret) and THEN lowering the nut slots would yield a 12th fret action of 0.5mm lower than the target, since by lowering the nut slots 1mm, the 12th fret action will drop 0.5mm. This is the reason I prepare the nut first. If the nut is cut properly, there should be no extra buzzing when the saddle is lowered to the desired performance level.

Another way to look at it. Low action or high action: both should have the nut adjusted the same. (Some subtleties and exceptions to this, but that is getting to higher level stuff.) So, by doing the nut first, you don't have to worry about the overall action being thrown out of place (lowered) by excessive lowering of the nut slots and its corresponding lowering of 12th fret action.

[MarkF786]

Ned,

I understand your approach to the nut slot depth - but what about the saddle height?

Nate,

Thanks for the link to your article. I've looked over your site a few times; good stuff!

I agree with your view of using the A string as the best place to measure with a straight edge. One question I've got though: should the straight edge rest exactly above the bridge top, or should it be a little higher? I read the opinion that "for a fretted fretboard simply add the height of the frets to your desired measurement where the straight edge meets the bridge." To me, this makes sense and matches the two Taylors I measured; along the A string the straight edge rests about 3/64" above the bridge.

Mark

[Waxer]

I would like to bring up the very important topic of string angle behind the saddle. If the neck angle is increased so that the saddle can extend above the bridge any amount there is a very good possibility that the torque on the bridge due to the leverage effect could cause the bridge to tilt forward into the sound hole. There is a fine balance between too much string angle and not enough. I just listened to an interview with George Lowden were he explains this and says that that is the reason he uses a pinless bridge. So he can control the string angle behind the saddle. Best I can tell a 45 degree angle on the low E is a good starting point. Any more than that and to much torque could result in trouble. The first thing I do when I pick up a new acoustic flat top guitar is sight across the top to see if the bridge is tilted forward. Jean Larrivee has a bracing pattern that makes this problem almost nonexistent.

[Waxer]

Originally Posted by MarkF786

Ned,

I understand your approach to the nut slot depth - but what about the saddle height?

Nate,

Thanks for the link to your article. I've looked over your site a few times; good stuff!

I agree with your view of using the A string as the best place to measure with a straight edge. One question I've got though: should the straight edge rest exactly above the bridge top, or should it be a little higher? I read the opinion that "for a fretted fretboard simply add the height of the frets to your desired measurement where the straight edge meets the bridge." To me, this makes sense and matches the two Taylors I measured; along the A string the straight edge rests about 3/64" above the bridge.

Mark

The thickness off the bridge needs to be taken into account with this method.
I like to see the straight edge just clear the bridge by about 1/64th on a bridge that is about 11/32 thick

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Waxer

Jean Larrivee has a bracing pattern that makes this problem almost nonexistent.

What is his bracing pattern and how does it eliminate the problem?

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by MarkF786

Ned,

I understand your approach to the nut slot depth - but what about the saddle height?

Nate,

Thanks for the link to your article. I've looked over your site a few times; good stuff!

I agree with your view of using the A string as the best place to measure with a straight edge. One question I've got though: should the straight edge rest exactly above the bridge top, or should it be a little higher? I read the opinion that "for a fretted fretboard simply add the height of the frets to your desired measurement where the straight edge meets the bridge." To me, this makes sense and matches the two Taylors I measured; along the A string the straight edge rests about 3/64" above the bridge.

Mark

Mark,

Regarding saddle height and neck angle, here is what I do.

First, decide the desired saddle protrusion. (ie: How much do you want the saddle to protrude from the bridge. 7mm is a bit much, and 2 mm is on the low side, so I usually aim for between 3-6mm protrusion. Many (most??) steel string guitars will compress after time, so setting up on the low side should generally avoided since it will shorten the time before the necessity for a subsequent neck reset. The ideal protrusion will depend upon the player, and factors such as bridge design and break angle. Ie: For a player who wants high action, in order to keep the saddle adjustable for a potential low-action future player, the saddle protrusion should be adjusted to its higher limit. And the converse is true as well.

You can back-calculate where the fret plane should meet the bridge. If you take 4mm/6mm target protrusion with a desired 2 to 3 mm 12th fret action, this means that the saddle should ride 4-6 mm (double the 12th fret action) above the fret plane at the bridge. Hence, for action and saddle height as per the above figures, the fret plane should ride just on the top of the bridge.

Remember 2 other factors:

1) When the string tension is on and truss adjusted properly, the 12th fret action will rise slightly when compared to the straight fretboard plane used to calculate and set neck angle. Hence, the saddle would have to be SLIGHTLY lowered to compensate.

2) When string tension is added, different designed guitars bellies will move (belly up) slightly, others remain more stable. I am not certain about Taylors, but I expect since they are less stiff soundboards compared to Martins, for example, so they may rise slightly in the belly. Perhaps some others can confirm regarding this. At any rate, if the belly rises a bit, the saddle would have to be SLIGHTLY lowered to compensate for the belly rise.

One question for clarification: Has the SADDLE only been lowered to its minimum height, or has the bridge itself been lowered too?

Also, what is the present saddle protrusion, what is the 12th fret action, and how close to straight is the truss rod adjusted? It would likely help if we (the other forum members) had this information.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Waxer

I would like to bring up the very important topic of string angle behind the saddle. If the neck angle is increased so that the saddle can extend above the bridge any amount there is a very good possibility that the torque on the bridge due to the leverage effect could cause the bridge to tilt forward into the sound hole. There is a fine balance between too much string angle and not enough. I just listened to an interview with George Lowden were he explains this and says that that is the reason he uses a pinless bridge. So he can control the string angle behind the saddle. Best I can tell a 45 degree angle on the low E is a good starting point. Any more than that and to much torque could result in trouble. The first thing I do when I pick up a new acoustic flat top guitar is sight across the top to see if the bridge is tilted forward. Jean Larrivee has a bracing pattern that makes this problem almost nonexistent.

You are entirely correct about break angle being important. A saddle that is too high has the more likely detriment of splitting the bridge at the ends of the saddle slot due to the increased leverage power on the saddle.

This string angle across the saddle (called the break angle) can be controlled in both pinned and non pinned bridges, but this string angle will change as the saddle is heightened and lowered for different desired actions, and as the saddle is lowered over time to compensate for any compression (geometrical change). So, maybe Lowden is just using this talk as a "marketing" explanation for his non-pinned bridges...??

I too am not familiar with anything extraordinary about L'Arrive guitar bracing to avoid bridge tilt. They are pretty standard x-braced guitars, but built well. With x-bracing, all components can be "tweaked" to strengthen the bridge area to help avoiding bridge tilt. Stronger and tighter x-braces in the bridge area, larger area and thicker bridge plate, etc.

[Waxer]

Originally Posted by HCG Canada

You are entirely correct about break angle being important. A saddle that is too high has the more likely detriment of splitting the bridge at the ends of the saddle slot due to the increased leverage power on the saddle.

This string angle across the saddle (called the break angle) can be controlled in both pinned and non pinned bridges, but this string angle will change as the saddle is heightened and lowered for different desired actions, and as the saddle is lowered over time to compensate for any compression (geometrical change). So, maybe Lowden is just using this talk as a "marketing" explanation for his non-pinned bridges...??

I too am not familiar with anything extraordinary about L'Arrive guitar bracing to avoid bridge tilt. They are pretty standard x-braced guitars, but built well. With x-bracing, all components can be "tweaked" to strengthen the bridge area to help avoiding bridge tilt. Stronger and tighter x-braces in the bridge area, larger area and thicker bridge plate, etc.

Larrivee uses two non-scalloped tone bars the run parallel to the bridge plate and they connect to the bottom of the X brace, this creates a box around the bridge plate. Most other makers run these tone bars on an angle away from the bridge plate and put a scallop in them. Hence no box to support the bridge plate.

[nate clark]

Originally Posted by MarkF786

Should the straight edge rest exactly above the bridge top, or should it be a little higher?

I compare the action at the 12th fret to the saddle protrusion on the same string. This comparison is the basis for determining how far off the neck angle is. When the job is done, I want (in most cases) the saddle protrusion at the a string to by twice as high as the action at the 12th fret. So the straightedge touches all of the frets as well as the top of the bridge.

In practice, I dont use a straightedge becaue it's typically not as accurate as straightening the neck with the truss rod, checking and adjusting (if necessary) the a string nut slot (or 6th string on most martins) then measuring the action at the 12th fret and comparing the action to the saddle protrusion.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Waxer

Larrivee uses two non-scalloped tone bars the run parallel to the bridge plate and they connect to the bottom of the X brace, this creates a box around the bridge plate. Most other makers run these tone bars on an angle away from the bridge plate and put a scallop in them. Hence no box to support the bridge plate.

Thanks for that. I'll check next time a L'Arrive comes into my shop.