Simple way to Split K&K Trinity Signal. Any custom circuit builders?

[ComradeGarrett]

Hi All. I think I may be searching for a unicorn here. I have K&K trinity systems in both my flat tops and I simply want to split the signal. I almost always play with amps and I find it a real pain in the *** to dial in two EQs (The Trinity Preamps and the amplifier's). Ideally, I want to split the signal into the two channels of my amp and have that be the end of it.

I had the guy at loopmaster build me a simple splitter but it doesn't seem to sound very good. Is there some secret I'm missing? Has anyone tackled this problem? Am I on quixotic quest?

Finally, do any of you know of anyone who could build a simple circuit with the following criteria:

1. Channel 1: Piezo (Gain Control, impdence matcher, perhaps a signal buffer)
2. Channel 2: Microphone (Gain Control, 7-15V phantom power switch)
3. Battery and Adapter Power
4. TRS input to dual mono output
5. Extra Credit for the addition of a simple clean boost

That's really all I want and I've never quite found it. If anyone knows why that simple circuit wouldn't work, let me know. I'm pretty clueless about circuit design.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ComradeGarrett

Hi All. I think I may be searching for a unicorn here. I have K&K trinity systems in both my flat tops and I simply want to split the signal. I almost always play with amps and I find it a real pain in the *** to dial in two EQs (The Trinity Preamps and the amplifier's). Ideally, I want to split the signal into the two channels of my amp and have that be the end of it.

I had the guy at loopmaster build me a simple splitter but it doesn't seem to sound very good. Is there some secret I'm missing? Has anyone tackled this problem? Am I on quixotic quest?

Finally, do any of you know of anyone who could build a simple circuit with the following criteria:

1. Channel 1: Piezo (Gain Control, impdence matcher, perhaps a signal buffer)
2. Channel 2: Microphone (Gain Control, 7-15V phantom power switch)
3. Battery and Adapter Power
4. TRS input to dual mono output
5. Extra Credit for the addition of a simple clean boost

That's really all I want and I've never quite found it. If anyone knows why that simple circuit wouldn't work, let me know. I'm pretty clueless about circuit design.

So you have one of the active K&K systems? No experience with that, but what many people use is simply the passive K&K transducers, and the K&K (or other) mic, wired directly to a stereo jack. From there, there are a number of external high quality preamps that will do the job. For separate outputs, 2 that I know of are the Raven Labs PMB-I or II (no longer made, but readily available used) and the Grace Felix. Oh, and on the highest end, the Pendulum SPS-1. Of these only Felix has a boost. There are others if you don't want separate outputs, including the K&K Quantum, Headway EDB-2, DTar DSolstice, and several others I'm forgetting. Lots of people here use such a setup. No special circuit needed, just passive wiring in the guitar and a good 2-channel external preamp.

[ComradeGarrett]

Thanks Doug. It seems I haven't been clear. To answer your initial question, I have passive K&K pickups. I'm not sure what I said to confuse the issue. My goals are either one of the following:

1) Forego a preamp altogether and split the signal to go straight into one of my amps.

OR

2) Have a preamp with a barebones circuit like the one I detailed above.


I have the K&K Trinity Preamp and I have a Rane AP-13. Both are perfectly nice but, since I'm always going from a preamp into the preamp of another amplifier, it seems kind of like overkill.

I think I may have found a solution, though. It appears that I can get a Red-Eye preamp with Phantom Power added to one of the channels. That's really what I've always wanted: a very simple preamp that can support a piezo element and a microphone without having a full EQ circuit busying up the signal.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ComradeGarrett

Thanks Doug. It seems I haven't been clear. To answer your initial question, I have passive K&K pickups. I'm not sure what I said to confuse the issue. My goals are either one of the following:

1) Forego a preamp altogether and split the signal to go straight into one of my amps.

OR

2) Have a preamp with a barebones circuit like the one I detailed above.


I have the K&K Trinity Preamp and I have a Rane AP-13. Both are perfectly nice but, since I'm always going from a preamp into the preamp of another amplifier, it seems kind of like overkill.

I think I may have found a solution, though. It appears that I can get a Red-Eye preamp with Phantom Power added to one of the channels. That's really what I've always wanted: a very simple preamp that can support a piezo element and a microphone without having a full EQ circuit busying up the signal.

It was the thing about the existing preamps that threw me, I assumed you had one of the active K&K onboard systems. So, still, you just need a dual channel preamp. If you can get a 2-channel red-eye that provides 9 volts for the mic (It's not really "phantom power", but it is power for the mic), that should be fine. The others I mentioned will also work. Baggs makes the Mix-Pro, which fits on your belt that would work, too.

I'm sure you could build a custom preamp, too, but there are already many high-quality options available specifically for this task, including, apparently, a custom red-eye, which is nice to know.

Note that you can't just forgo a preamp with this setup, your mic needs power. There are a few amps that provide bias power for a mic, but they're rare. The older Fishman Loudboxes is one. It's also possible to create a simple converter between 48 volt balanced phantom power and the 9 volt unbalanced bias power your mic needs, so that would make it possible to use any mixer or any 2-channel amp with a phantom-powered mic input.

[ComradeGarrett]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Note that you can't just forgo a preamp with this setup, your mic needs power. There are a few amps that provide bias power for a mic, but they're rare. The older Fishman Loudboxes is one. It's also possible to create a simple converter between 48 volt balanced phantom power and the 9 volt unbalanced bias power your mic needs, so that would make it possible to use any mixer or any 2-channel amp with a phantom-powered mic input.

Yessir. If I could catalog all the combinations of gear I've used to get the most out K&Ks, you'd die of boredom before I finished. I've had a buh-zillion amps and two preamps I mentioned before. Plus, I've tried all sorts of patchwork fixes using phantom power units and buffer pedals not to mention a bunch of other funky make-shift contraptions. I had a Schertler David that I thought would fit all my needs but I was still having impedence matching trouble. One channel would sounds great, the other would sound lousy.

If the red-eye doesn't suit me, I'm going to forget the microphone and just try to get the best possible sound out of the SBT.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ComradeGarrett

Yessir. If I could catalog all the combinations of gear I've used to get the most out K&Ks, you'd die of boredom before I finished. I've had a buh-zillion amps and two preamps I mentioned before. Plus, I've tried all sorts of patchwork fixes using phantom power units and buffer pedals not to mention a bunch of other funky make-shift contraptions. I had a Schertler David that I thought would fit all my needs but I was still having impedence matching trouble. One channel would sounds great, the other would sound lousy.

If the red-eye doesn't suit me, I'm going to forget the microphone and just try to get the best possible sound out of the SBT.

This dual source setup, pickup+mix is really simple, as long as you have the right gear. Any of the preamps I mentioned, just plugin with a TRS cable, and they should sound great. One of these days, I want to do a video series on this type of setup. It seems to cause lots of confusion. I suspect it's just too easy to try to make it work without the right gear. I have mic+some pickup in all my guitars, and let's see, 5 different preamps (if I didn't forget one) that work perfectly every time. They just multiply somehow :-) But they all sound good and do the job without any issues

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by ComradeGarrett

Yessir. If I could catalog all the combinations of gear I've used to get the most out K&Ks, you'd die of boredom before I finished.

....this sentence is as about as telling as it gets to support my theory that IMNSHO K&K pickups are a huge pain in the *** for anybody that strums a guitar, especially when high band volumes are concerned.

And now my monthly K&K rant... (which I do to not only forum ears, but anybody that will listen, just ask my girlfriend)

How they got to revered on any of these forums I'll never know. I've had them in a Martin HD-28, Martin OM-15, Gibson J45 50's reissue, Parkwood LE-064, and a Gibson J-100 Xtra. They were in half of these guitars when I got them. They are all now ripped out for GOOD! And everything that replaced them works and sounds better!

I think they sound passable for delicate fingerpicking and gentle singer songwriter stuff (and that's only when you can EQ the low-mid honk out of them), but for anything with a driving rhythm I say pass.

I listened to all of the clips on your links, and I love, not only your solid rhythm playing, but your great honky tonkin' voice. Put a B-Band XOM 2.2 system in that J35 (I play a J45 which should pretty much the same), and be done with all that phantom power crap and impedance mismatches! With the money you save buy one killer EQ (EMPRESS Para EQ which comes with clean boost all in a nice mono package), and then go out and make the bacon!

Yep this is pretty much my 2 cents, but it comes from me trying to make K&Ks work to no avail with more than a little dinero spent. But no matter what you do, keep on honky tonkin' man I like your style.

[ComradeGarrett]

Love your input, Rockabilly! Also, thanks for the compliment on my playing and voice. What you said re: the B-Band is really fortuitous because I'm about to put a pick-up on my '65 J-45 and I had my choice narrowed to the B-Band or the PUTW #54.

I often forget that a lot of the players on here do a lot of solo or small group work and that drives a lot of their gear decisions. I think the K&K sounds great on it's own but I've never loved it in a band setting. Honky Tonky Union is quite loud for a country band and I feel like the K&K just gets lost with the exception of the high end. The Davenport Bros. doesn't suffer this fate because we're much quieter and I just play an archtop with a Ken Armstrong humbucker.

Thanks for the advice my man. To be honest, that's where my heart was. If I'm not playing in a band, then I'm not plugged in. So what's the use of a dual source anyway?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by ComradeGarrett

…a very simple preamp that can support a piezo element and a microphone without having a full EQ circuit busying up the signal.

Hi CG
You are 'presuming' a RedEye doesn't affect tone just because there are no external controls. I've played through them, and they are not 'flat'. Multiple layers of EQ are seldom identical, and I just see them as fine tuning assistants (not busying up the signal). That said, if you are chasing 'perfect' sound, and a RedEye does it for you, then you'd not have to mess with any tone knobs or phantom if you remove the mic from the mix (see next paragraph).

I thought your idea of just withholding the mic from the mix, and using only the K&K Pure mini was the best one you mentioned (and all 4 of my acoustics have Dual Source K&K rigs in them which I run as dual source all the time). And with Dual Source wired passive K&K systems, if you plug in a monophonic cable, you will only be accessing the pickup.

I don't think the mic will add any clarity which will improve the way your guitar sets in the mix. Acoustic guitars tend to get buried in band mixes anyway.

Your observation that a lot of us who like (K&K & other) dual source rigs are solo players, or small ensemble people is probably accurate, and when I play in very loud bands with mine, I always have a sound hole plug (feedback suppressor) handy in case the stage volume is too over-the-top.

Hope you get the rig to sound the way you like it…

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by ComradeGarrett

Love your input, Rockabilly! Also, thanks for the compliment on my playing and voice. What you said re: the B-Band is really fortuitous because I'm about to put a pick-up on my '65 J-45 and I had my choice narrowed to the B-Band or the PUTW #54.

I often forget that a lot of the players on here do a lot of solo or small group work and that drives a lot of their gear decisions. I think the K&K sounds great on it's own but I've never loved it in a band setting. Honky Tonky Union is quite loud for a country band and I feel like the K&K just gets lost with the exception of the high end. The Davenport Bros. doesn't suffer this fate because we're much quieter and I just play an archtop with a Ken Armstrong humbucker.

Thanks for the advice my man. To be honest, that's where my heart was. If I'm not playing in a band, then I'm not plugged in. So what's the use of a dual source anyway?

To be fair the B-Band XOM 2.2 is Dual Source, just no microphone, instead an SBT and UST, and they are mixed to a mono output. Hell when I play solo, I even stick in a mic in front of my guitar that I lean into to give me some extra "air" and "oomph" when needed

I wish I could offer advice on the PUTW pickup but I really haven't used that system. I've heard others use it, specifically a solo fingerstlye player who opened for a band of mine in Colorado, and his sounded pretty good, but he was a finger picker, flesh on strings only. I have NEVER heard it in a band setup.

Here's a tip though if you go with the B-Band XOM 2.2! When you install the UST portion of the system, put a small piece of cotton or foam in the small hole where the UST passes through the bridge plate. There's a very small metallic ring in the tone (remember it's not really a wire, so much as a band, and if vibrates in the hole it could possibly ring.) I've never had a problem with ring since I've incorporated that step into the install. Is the ring bad? No, not particularly, but if you can make it better, with the cotton or foam, why not do it!

Here's my J45 with the B-Band

[SpruceTop]

EDIT: I was suggesting the Trance system below but you've already used the K&K with superglue which contaminates the bridgeplate and likely precludes using the Trance.

Ever consider a Trance Audio Amulet M Dual Mono system?