Cuban Mahogany vs Madagascar Rosewood

[lizzard]

Good problems to have. I find German to be a little darker/warmer. Since you stated that you want different, and you already have German; you might consider Italian? I'm finding a lot of what you describe in my first Italian topped guitar. I've played/owned most other spruces and It certainly could be voicing (I agree that the luthier is paramount) but none-the-less...

Have you picked a luthier?

Enjoy the ride.

Chris

PS - Have you experienced Honduran Rosewood?

[Andy Howell]

I just wonder whether you might to go a very different way as your current guitars are all in a certain mode - we met at a Martin Simpson school!

I eventually went to a UK luthier who I knew made instruments with a different sound and feel and wasn't disappointed. With a Sobell, a Ryan, a Fischerr and a Kostal you've got many of the NA bases covered!

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by lizzard

Good problems to have. I find German to be a little darker/warmer. Since you stated that you want different, and you already have German; you might consider Italian? I'm finding a lot of what you describe in my first Italian topped guitar. I've played/owned most other spruces and It certainly could be voicing (I agree that the luthier is paramount) but none-the-less...

Have you picked a luthier?

Enjoy the ride.

Chris

PS - Have you experienced Honduran Rosewood?

I get so confused when I read posts regarding German Spruce. I have read from numerous sources that there has not been any instrument grade Spruce coming from Germany for a hundred years. Anything being called German Spruce now is imported and sold as such, including from Italy.

Believe me, I am not trying to be argumentative here, I just don't think there is any true German Spruce, I think it has become more of a nomenclature situation than a true species. ???? Sorry for the small thread highjack.

[iim7V7IM7]

Quite honestly, there is so much overlap between the commonly used spruce species in terms of their density and their stiffness that the discussion of provenance and terroir is somewhat silly. Factories which buy hundreds or thousands of top sets work off averages. The table below illustrates average differences between three commonly used spruce species.

Name------------------Avg. Dried Weight--------Janka Hardness-------Elastic Modulus---
Engelmann Spruce-------385 kg/m3-----------------1740 N-----------------9.44 GPa------
Norway Spruce-----------405 kg/m3-----------------1680 N-----------------9.70 GPa------
Sitka Spruce--------------425 kg/m3-----------------2270 N-----------------11.03 GPa----

These average differences are misleading because they don't described the variability within each species. Below, I have graphically illustrated some ranges on these physical properties provided by luthier Alan Carruth recently in another post on this site.

Average Dried Weight Range:
300------------350-----------400-----------450-----------500------------550---------Kg/m3
---------------|<--------------------------Norway Spruce-------------------->|
-------------------------------------|<-------Sitka Spruce------>|
-----------------|<----------Engelmann Spruce----------->|

Elastic Modulus Range:
9------10------11------12------13------14------15------16------17------18------19-----GPa
|<----------------------------------Norway Spruce---------------------------------->|
--------------------------|<---------------------Sitka Spruce--------------->|
------------------|<-----------Engelmann Spruce-------------->|

What I hope that you can see that there is more intra-species variability is larger than the inter-species differences. So in the end it really comes down more to the individual set than whether its Bosnian, Carpathian German, Italian etc. Let your luthier pick your top. Luthiers don't work on averages but based on the properties of an individual set. It is likely that there are excellent reasons for recommending a particular set vs. a particular species or terroir.

My $.02

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

Anytime, Howard.

I must admit I'm not very picky. I think nearly every guitar that I pick up is pretty good.

That's because you are a good player.

Interviewer: " What camera do you use, David (Bailey)?"

David Bailey: "Give me a camera and I'll use it"

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

Quite honestly, there is so much overlap between the commonly used spruce species in terms of their density and their stiffness that the discussion of provenance and terroir. Factories which buy hundreds or thousands of tip sets work off averages. The table below illustrates average differences between three commonly used spruce species.

Name------------------Avg. Dried Weight--------Janka Hardness-------Elastic Modulus---
Engelmann Spruce-------385 kg/m3-----------------1740 N-----------------9.44 GPa------
Norway Spruce-----------405 kg/m3-----------------1680 N-----------------9.70 GPa------
Sitka Spruce--------------425 kg/m3-----------------2270 N-----------------11.03 GPa----

These average differences are misleading because they don't described the variability within each species. Below, I have graphically illustrated some ranges on these physical properties provided by luthier Alan Carruth recently in another post on this site.

Average Dried Weight Range:
300------------350-----------400-----------450-----------500------------550---------Kg/m3
---------------|<--------------------------Norway Spruce-------------------->|
-------------------------------------|<-------Sitka Spruce------>|
-----------------|<----------Engelmann Spruce----------->|

Elastic Modulus Range:
9------10------11------12------13------14------15------16------17------18------19-----GPa
|<----------------------------------Norway Spruce---------------------------------->|
--------------------------|<---------------------Sitka Spruce--------------->|
------------------|<-----------Engelmann Spruce-------------->|

What I hope that you can see that their is more intra-species variability is larger than the inter-species differences. So in the end it really comes down more to the individual set than whether its Bosnian, Carpathian German, Italian etc. Let your luthier pick your top. Luthiers don't work on averages but based on the properties of an individual set. It is likely that there are excellent reasons for recommending a particular set vs. a particular species or terroir.

My $.02

While I agree with your main point regarding individual variation and the ability of the luthier to work with each individual piece to bring out its best, ie. stiffer braces on a less stiff top or visa versa (simplified of course), my point was there is no German Spruce and I think that is important for people to know. German Spruce is now a generalized term used for European Spruce which includes them all and a lot from Yugoslavia. While this is all OK, people should understand what they are getting or actually not getting in this case. You are not buying Spruce grown or harvested in Germany. I have not heard anyone longing for Yugoslavian Spruce for their guitar although it is obviously just fine as it is being sold under the name of German Spruce. If the buyer doesn't care about that or at least buys knowing what they are getting, that is just fine by me.

I do disagree when you infer that provenance ie. terroir does not matter. I think if you know where the tree came from, this is relevant. I have read where Italian Spruce from the northern regions in the Alps, due to its shorter growing seasons will be different tonally (denser) than more southern Italian Spruce just for example. In my own build, Steve purchased the wood from the luthier who actually cut the darn tree down himself so he could probably bring us not only to the slope he harvested it from, but to the exact stump. To me, that is really cool for one thing, but also could potentially be very important tonally. I also know EXACTLY what I paid for. For me, maybe not for anyone else, that is very important. I know that my wood is what it is named for and sold as. Now let the luthier work his magic utilizing as quality of piece of wood as I can give him. I think anyone would agree, that although Bruce Sexuaer can build a guitar from Catalpa, he would do better with BRW and Italian Spruce. If that is an arguable point, than what the heck are we doing paying so much for custom guitars built from what is perceived as the best woods available.

IMHO,

Tom

[Howard Klepper]

I have sets from a trusted source that were cut in Bavaria (that's in Germany). And a few old tops that were bought in Germany in the early 1950's. So German spruce can be had. But so what? Growing conditions matter. Political borders do not.

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

I have sets from a trusted source that were cut in Bavaria (that's in Germany). And a few old tops that were bought in Germany in the early 1950's. So German spruce can be had. But so what? Growing conditions matter. Political borders do not.

Yes and I would not doubt you for a minute on them if you told me that. However, I think that is by far the exception rather than the rule. I doubt you believe that everything being called German Spruce today is from Germany although I certainly do not want to put words in your mouth. All the tone woods sites I have looked at as well as other articles have said there is really no actual instrument grade German Spruce anymore...I don't live there so I guess I don't know, but I did know that Bavaria is in Germany, but thanks for that. I am sure there are older sets around, but according to my sources, the instrument grade wood was harvested years ago. It has just always been a source of confusion for me with all the talk about German Spruce when all I read says it is gone.

I did not mean to high jack this thread...sorry.

[iim7V7IM7]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

I do disagree when you infer that provenance ie. terroir does not matter. I think if you know where the tree came from, this is relevant. I have read where Italian Spruce from the northern regions in the Alps, due to its shorter growing seasons will be different tonally (denser) than more southern Italian Spruce just for example. In my own build, Steve purchased the wood from the luthier who actually cut the darn tree down himself so he could probably bring us not only to the slope he harvested it from, but to the exact stump. To me, that is really cool for one thing, but also could potentially be very important tonally. I also know EXACTLY what I paid for. For me, maybe not for anyone else, that is very important. I know that my wood is what it is named for and sold as. Now let the luthier work his magic utilizing as quality of piece of wood as I can give him. I think anyone would agree, that although Bruce Sexuaer can build a guitar from Catalpa, he would do better with BRW and Italian Spruce. If that is an arguable point, than what the heck are we doing paying so much for custom guitars built from what is perceived as the best woods available.

IMHO,

Tom

I suppose I am just a bit more "spruce agnostic" than you...

The provenance of whether a top came from an Italian alpen tree felled and processed by Stefano Rivolta, the Swiss or Julian Alps by Martin Guhl, the Carpathian Mountains by John Preston's partners in Romania, the Canadian Rockies by Bruce Harvie or by John Griffin from the Appalachians is way down my list of what matters beyond the subjective romantic associations.

I personally care more that the top set:

1) Was processed properly and is well cut on quarter;
2) Is stable and has been seasoned a long time in the luthier's wood locker;
3) Possesses the properties (e.g. density, stiffness, tap tone etc.) that the luthier wants for the particular guitar being commissioned on their bench.

Unless the tree was actually felled by the luthier, the actual provenance of the wood is reliant on the integrity individuals who fell and process wood like some that I mentioned. I have two guitars that are "German" spruce which they may or may not be. I do know that they came from a trustworthy source and most importantly were individually selected by a master luthier to use in a project. Which country they actually come from matters very little to me.

[theEdwinson]

I recommend that you consider having a guitar built with a short-range multiscale (aka "fanned-fret") configuration- say, a scale range from 25" (high E) to 25.5" or 25.75" (low E).

The progressively longer scales on the lower strings will give you good tension for midrange and bass response, while the shorter scales moving up to the treble strings could very likely help bring out the sweetness and overtones in the trebles.

I've made a good number of these shorter-range multiscale guitars, and have found that they consistently respond this way. Shorter scales favor the trebles, while the longer scales add some extra umph to the bass. And the mids, well, they are in the middle. So, an intelligently constructed multiscale may just be the optimum configuration for your tonal criteria.

Also, if you've never played a multiscale guitar, you may be very surprised at how easy and ergonomic they are (provided the scale spread is not too extreme). The fan of the frets follows the natural arc of your left hand up and down the fingerboard, and you really don't need to alter anything in your playing technique.

I prefer a 1/2" or 3/4" scale spread on my multiscales, and sometimes I have to point out to a person who is test-driving one of these that it has a multiscale fingerboard. Otherwise, they might not realize there was anything different going on...
Anyway, this is one more factor you may want to consider...

[printer2]

Seems pronouncement of the extinction of the German Woodcutter is a might premature.



Why is this not working, oh well,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vXepLO7qyQ

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

I think anyone would agree, that although Bruce Sexuaer can build a guitar from Catalpa, he would do better with BRW and Italian Spruce. If that is an arguable point, than what the heck are we doing paying so much for custom guitars built from what is perceived as the best woods available.

IMHO,

Tom

For those who aren't too seduced by the exotics, there are guitars like the MagCat, or the all-Catalpa I made a few years ago. Very few people have played either, and I am betting most of you would be extremely happy to have one of them. It is a question of taste whether they are better/worse than my BRW/Italian efforts, and the distinctions are subtle at that.

I have not read this thread, I was summoned by my name, but Cuban Mahogany and MadRose are nearly at opposite ends of a spectrum. Nevertheless, who builds is a much greater variable.

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by printer2

Seems pronouncement of the extinction of the German Woodcutter is a might premature.



Why is this not working, oh well,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vXepLO7qyQ

After watching this video, I obviously am wrong and I apologize for suggesting otherwise. It is clear they still are cutting wood in Germany and using it for its intended purposes.

[ZagatoV12]

Originally Posted by Andy Howell

I just wonder whether you might to go a very different way as your current guitars are all in a certain mode - we met at a Martin Simpson school!

I eventually went to a UK luthier who I knew made instruments with a different sound and feel and wasn't disappointed. With a Sobell, a Ryan, a Fischerr and a Kostal you've got many of the NA bases covered!

Hey, Andy!. Great to hear from you. 'Tis true, I'm after something very very special this final time around (he says with genuine belief that just might be true). You make a good point and I'll chew on that for a while. I'm also following steveh's advice and playing through them all again and carefully reviewing and comparing them for what they bring to the stable. I guess that, as you add to your collection your musical tastes change and your playing adapts and, eventually, you are able to hone in on what really suites you best. I've already made the decision that at least one instrument will go at the end of this process. :-)

[ZagatoV12]

Well, I think this thread has now gone off in its own direction so we may as well leave it there. Thank you all for your positive suggestions.