Getting past the riff....

[Guitarfish]

I'm not a trained player foremost so I'm not sure how to ask this even, but....

I can make up little riffs mixing notes and chord changes but can't seem to transition to a rythymic tune. I end up circling round and round in my gimmick until I can play it cleanly, but no complete tune ever becomes of it.

Is there a specific lesson track that would help? I hear comments very rarely that 'that sounds nice', but no songs / tunes ever develop completely. Or not beyond the repetitive riff stage anyway.

I'd appreciate any comments to push me along. Thanks.

[rick-slo]

Understand what makes up a complete tune. Take some existing tunes and add your riffs to them. Then see if you can do the reverse (you own tunes, then add riffs).

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Guitarfish

…I can make up little riffs mixing notes and chord changes but can't seem to transition to a rythymic tune. I end up circling round and round in my gimmick until I can play it cleanly, but no complete tune ever becomes of it.

Hi Guitarfish...

What you are calling a gimmick I call a 'hook' (if it's clever enough).

I record them and save them up and then start putting pieces together later when I have a bunch of them to work with.

Songs seldom drop from the sky for me, they are more like the result of a lot of planting, watering, and weeding.

[ameetnsharma]

Commit to writing a full song (instrumental or vocal doesn't matter)... You need to think of some kind of structure...

Put your riffs into that structure...

You can work on riffs individually... but eventually you have to combine them into some type of song structure.

Say a structure like:

Intro
A section
B section
A section
B section
C section
A section
B section
Outro

So for a vocal type song... the A section might be the verse... B section would be the chorus... C section would be the bridge.

Maybe your riff is the B section.

I think it doesn't really matter what your exact structure is.... but I think you need some kind of structure to organize your songs...

So the trick is finding sections that transition well into each other... or to tweak your sections so that they transition well into each other.

[ameetnsharma]

To reiterate what ljguitar said... you must record your ideas... if you write music, then write them down... or tab them out etc... And organize these ideas somehow... so that you can get back to them later.


If you don't record them somehow you will forget them. I've forgotten so many good ideas, because I didn't take the effort to record them....

[jseth]

I've been writing songs since I was in my teens... and the process has shifted a bit over the years, but it still seems to work, albeit slowly!

I have had songs just "fall out of the sky" into my lap, but not all come so easily... I have learned to accept the new songs HOWEVER they choose to show up, and it doesn't matter to me whether they start with the "riff" or a melody or a set of changes I like or a phrase or expression in words that sticks to me...

I don't always write down ideas or record them... I guess I figure that if I continue to remember them and they keep popping up in my consciousness, that they are worth writing a song with!

The way you begin is JUST BEGIN... do it however you want; you can always tweak it this way or that... you may write a few stinkers before you start really communicating your idea in a manner that suits you... and that doesn't matter, either! This not something that's a "one and done" type of endeavor...

You will never get it "done", so you can't get it wrong... because you never get it "done"...

Have fun with the process!

[Howard Klepper]

How much time do you spend playing other people's songs, complete, start to finish?

A lot of people think they should be playing originals before they have learned to play a lot of covers. That's like trying to write a speech before you have learned the language. The good songwriters have spent a lot of time playing other people's music. But playing a lot of songs is no guaranty that you can write good songs.

Songwriting and playing are different skills. There's nothing wrong with only being good at one of them. Many good players will never be good songwriters. So what? Better to spend your time playing good music than playing crappy originals.

[rick-slo]

Howard is probably right. Learn to swim before scuba diving. If you have not learned how songs are put together by having learned a range of existing material
you are much less likely to write something good. You will most likely come up with a bunch of riffs strung together or some other guitar centric rather than music
centric stuff. That said it won't hurt to try writing your own songs from the get go as long as you spend time learning other people's songs also.

[ameetnsharma]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

How much time do you spend playing other people's songs, complete, start to finish?

A lot of people think they should be playing originals before they have learned to play a lot of covers. That's like trying to write a speech before you have learned the language. The good songwriters have spent a lot of time playing other people's music.

Hmmm... I don't agree. My personal feeling... if someone wants to write songs... he/she should start doing so as soon as possible, with as little or as much knowledge, he/she has. Learning covers is good for improving performance and musicianship. It will also help for learning the musical form of whatever genre he's playing, which will help writing songs in that form... But the learning process of writing music largely comes from writing itself... Become a better player may help a bit... but I don't think it's a good reason to wait to write music.

There's a lot of great music that can be written with limited technique... more musical knowledge helps... but nothing really compares to going through the writing process yourself.

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

Better to spend your time playing good music than playing crappy originals.

But the only way to get to the point of writing great originals is by writing... and the first songs a person writes will probably be crap... that's the learning process... a person has to go through that... tweak his process... and eventually write the good stuff.

[Guitarfish]

Thanks for the replies. I'll respond by saying I play quite a few songs that aren't mine.

Norwegian Wood
This is your song
Ramblin man
City of New Orleans
etc, etc.

I appreciate the advice. I just was wondering how to break out of the riff, or maybe I make the riff a bridge or something (term usage correct?). I just wonder do I use the same chords in my riff in the rest of the song or........

Hard to say what I mean without the music education to describe what I'm trying to do. I've been writing little fingerpicked songs since 1979.. I just don't know what I don't know.. Wish they had a local class or something.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Guitarfish

Thanks for the replies. I'll respond by saying I play quite a few songs that aren't mine.

Norwegian Wood
This is your song
Ramblin man
City of New Orleans
etc, etc.

I appreciate the advice. I just was wondering how to break out of the riff, or maybe I make the riff a bridge or something (term usage correct?). I just wonder do I use the same chords in my riff in the rest of the song or........

Hard to say what I mean without the music education to describe what I'm trying to do. I've been writing little fingerpicked songs since 1979.. I just don't know what I don't know.. Wish they had a local class or something.

Get this book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-I.../dp/1615641033

[Guitarfish]

Hey Howard, aren't there many excellent songwriters that never do make it as musicians? I think history is full of them.
I come up with a lot of little 'hook' ideas while I relax at night. I try to write them down but they are not in proper terms or notation.
I struggled for a bit today just trying to remember the little riff that started me thinking of this thread. I remembered finally but should probably get some kind of video recording. Either on my phone or a real camera.
I told my wife at lunch I should probably get a teacher. I just spend time on the AGF trying to learn by osmosis.

[ameetnsharma]

Guitarfish... try taking two of your riffs... and see if you can play them one after the other... see how it sounds...

Shift the pitch of the riffs to match... try messing with the timings.

If they sound awkward one after the other... trying putting in something between the two riffs... (if you've listened to the song I got the feel in' by james brown... right before the "baby, baby, baby" part... he has the horns playing a short phrase)... anything could work... it preps the listener for the second riff.

Don't be a perfectionist... just experiment... it may sound awkward at first.. but you'll find a way to smooth the transition between the two riffs...

[Guitarfish]

Sorry folks, double post. I blame my Touchpad!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Guitarfish

…should probably get some kind of video recording. Either on my phone or a real camera.

Hi G-fish...

If all you are doing is recalling a hook, you can even do audio recording. Modern phones are more than up to the task (as long as it's not a totally dumb phone).

I have a friend who calls his wife and tells her not to answer, and hums or plays his ideas to her phone (as a message).

After I record them, I transfer them to my computer and review them periodically.

I actually have a Zoom 2n which is a great digital recorder. I'd buy an H1 but I don't need another digital recorder. But the Zoom H1 is a great idea collected and fits about anywhere (including a shirt pocket).

Good luck on collecting ideas and developing them!!