Scale Question (1st custom build)

[gstar]

I am embarking on my first custom build experience and need to make a decision in the near future about scale length on the guitar, which will be a 14 fret OM with a 15 inch lower bout.

I'm taking over a build for another client and the original plan was for the guitar to be a 25 inch scale guitar. This can still be changed though and I am leaning towards 25.4 inch scale. The builder seems to prefer 25 inch scale and also says that 25.2(5) is a potential option.

This is what I understand about the subject. I have read that there is approximately a 5% tension difference between the two, that the longer scale may provide more volume and bass response, that the longer scale might lend itself better to drop tunings, that the longer scale can mimic the benefits of the shorter scale by tuning down half a step and capo at the first fret, that the shorter scale may sound sweeter, that the shorter scale may position the bridge more ideally, that the shorter scale may make complex chording easier, that the shorter scale might better suit aging hands.

I have three 25.4 inch scale OM guitars. I have one 25 inch scale OM. I'm definitely leaning the longer scale, but don't want to make a "mistake." My experience has been that the shorter scale guitars sound a little thin to my ear (I've had 24 inch scale and 25 inch scale). I also find that the shorter scale seems to have more string noise against the frets when I am strumming due to decreased string tension. That being said, I absolutely love my 25 inch scale Simon Fay guitar when I am finger-picking and strumming softly. The builder will ultimately build to whatever scale I want, but I get the impression that he believes the 25 inch scale would be better. I wanted to get some feedback from others as to why that might be.

Things specific to me that might shape your advice:

I primarily am a singer who plays along in accompaniment while singing.
I prefer the OM size due to its comfort and overall versatility.
I primarily strum chords without a pick while mixing in fingerpicking with the bare flesh of my fingers, but I also do enjoy flat-picking.
I most often do not play with any amplification and have a strong voice so guitar volume is relevant.
I almost always keep my guitars tuned one half step down and play a few songs with drop D tuning.
The builder builds lightly braced guitars that are restricted to only light strings (I have one Guitar that has responded incredibly to medium strings tuned one half step down, which I understand is approximately the same string tension as light strings tuned in standard tuning).

I find a lot of the information I have read to be confusing and I would greatly appreciate any additional feedback or advice that any more knowledgeable or experienced members might have. I absolutely will also continue to discuss this with my builder, but extra insight never hurts, especially with a decision that may be with me for quite some time. Thanks in advance.

[ChuckS]

You provided a ton of information, but I have a question. You said you typically tune down a half step: Is that so the guitar is easier to play in a key to match your vocal range, or are you doing it for reduced tension and ease of play?

The reason I ask, is because if you intend to play with the guitar tuned down a half step to match your voice then the longer scale may be better. Oherwise, either scale length might work for you.

To me, the bass on a longer scale has a bit more focus/punch and the bass on a short scale is more open/round. Also, I think trebles on a long scale have more bite/snap and trebles on a short scale are a bit more subdued.

I see you are in Minnesota. Are you using a local builder?

[gstar]

Chuck,

I assume you dug your Sorel's out thanks to this weather turning frigid.

I tune down for singing range not comfort. I don't find standard tuning on 25.4 inch scale to be uncomfortable, but it's been years since I've played standard tuning.

My builder is from Texas, but we do have some highly regarded builders in our state. I've had the pleasure of having Charlie Hoffman do some repair work for me.

[Bruce Sexauer]

If the box is together, or even the top braced, making a scale change throws quite a curve ball. I personally would baulk as my reputation rides on every guitar. If it hasn't gone that far, well, part of the definition of an OM (classically speaking) is a 25.4" string length.

[gstar]

Bruce,

The box isn't closed and either scale can be used. Aside from the historical accuracy, do you believe that 25.4 inch scale best suits the use I've outlined? Thanks.

-Gustav

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by gstar

This is what I understand about the subject. I have read that there is approximately a 5% tension difference between the two, that the longer scale may provide more volume and bass response, that the longer scale might lend itself better to drop tunings, that the longer scale can mimic the benefits of the shorter scale by tuning down half a step and capo at the first fret, that the shorter scale may sound sweeter, that the shorter scale may position the bridge more ideally, that the shorter scale may make complex chording easier, that the shorter scale might better suit aging hands.

I haven't verified the 5% claim but I remember doing the calculation a few years ago and that number seems about right.

In my opinion, that 5% figure is also a good reflection of the impact on sound/tone/playability. Of course there is a difference -- but it's not night and day.

That being said, some folks are more sensitive to scale length than others. They know who they are. Other folks (like me) are more sensitive to neck width. YMMV.

Originally Posted by gstar

I'm taking over a build for another client and the original plan was for the guitar to be a 25 inch scale guitar. This can still be changed though and I am leaning towards 25.4 inch scale. The builder seems to prefer 25 inch scale and also says that 25.2(5) is a potential option.

I personally prefer the longest scale that I can comfortably play -- especially on larger guitars. YMMV.

If a builder is used to a certain scale length, I'd stick with that length unless you have a definite preference (those players know who they are). Otherwise a guitar isn't going to be quiet because its scale is a fifth of an inch shorter -- and it's not going to be the bomb because it has the longer scale either.

Good luck with your build.

[justonwo]

I would probably go with my instinct and build with the longer scale length. I'm with Mau in that I prefer the longest scale length I can comfortably play (usually 25.6"). The builder should be able to accommodate either scale length without impacting his "signature sound." We're talking about a pretty small change.

[westman]

gstar, hope you don't mind me saying, you need to simplify your options some.

[Kent Chasson]

It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of the tradeoffs. The only minor argument I have to your post is that you say a shorter scale may place the bridge at a more ideal spot. On a 14 fret guitar, the bridge position will only move about 3/16" for a .4" scale change. As long as the builder moves the bracing with it, I don't think that's an issue worth considering.

In addition to the extra power, I find that longer scales give a more focused sound with a crisper attack, something I would probably recommend for someone playing with flesh.

My main question would be about you tuning down and playing with a capo. If that's really what you intend to do, why not just build to that scale length?

For tone (and intonation), I also recommend the longest scale you are comfortable with, particularly if you play in drop D.

[rogthefrog]

+100 on picking the longest scale you can handle, in general, but especially so since you tune down.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by gstar

Bruce,

The box isn't closed and either scale can be used. Aside from the historical accuracy, do you believe that 25.4 inch scale best suits the use I've outlined? Thanks.

-Gustav

It is a great deal easier to get integrity in the bass with relatively longer strings, and this becomes truer as you lower the pitch (tension) on the string. No one, particularly you, has mentioned the MultiScale option, but there is that. If you were dealing with me, I would have by this point in your process.

[gstar]

Thank you to all those who responded. I sincerely appreciate the insight. My builder and I discussed this again and reached the mutual decision to build with the 25.4 scale. The majority of his builds are built with that scale anyway. I misunderstood any meaningful preference on his part and he is fully supportive.

Bruce: I have great admiration for your work. You build great instruments and contribute regularly to this forum. I believe the thinking behind the multi-scale approach is sound, but the look of even your less obvious variation isn't for me. I know some find putting form before function to be foolish, but to each his own.

Kent: Your recent Prairie style build was a great treat. Very nice. I have no intention of playing with a capo at the first fret to mimic the shorter scale, I was just noting an argument I've read a few times in support of the longer scale having the versatility to be played that way to mimic a shorter scale feel if that was desired for certain songs etc.

Mau and Juston: Thank you for the advice and the many wonderful threads you have shared on this forum. Your photography, music and build threads are what helps give this site substance and I enjoy your contributions greatly.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by gstar

My builder and I discussed this again and reached the mutual decision to build with the 25.4 scale. The majority of his builds are built with that scale anyway.

Good call.

Originally Posted by gstar

I know some find putting form before function to be foolish, but to each his own.

This is not a clear case of "putting form before function" anyway. It would be difficult to establish the actual benefits of a multi-scale without knowing how the player tunes his guitar, what string gauges are used, what string tension is ideal for the player, what the player wants to hear, etc.

I actually like the look of multi-scales and think Bruce came up with a rather clever idea by leaving the bridge perpendicular.

Originally Posted by gstar

Mau and Juston: Thank you for the advice and the many wonderful threads you have shared on this forum. Your photography, music and build threads are what helps give this site substance and I enjoy your contributions greatly.

Juston needs to post more recordings.