How loud is the output on your Taylor ES2?

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

In any event, the ES2 is designed to have a stronger output than the ES1, according to the Taylor website. Its indeed curious that some users are reporting the opposite to be true. I look forward to reading the explanation which they'll be getting from Taylor support. Perhaps the "rumors" (that the ES2 preamp was redesigned for 2017) will be substantiated, and perhaps they won't.

Thanks, Gary. I'm also looking forward to the explanation folks will be getting from Taylor Support.

[martingitdave]

Taylor had a few version of the ES2 preamp since it's inception. Some threads cover this as far back as 2014. The Taylor I purchased in 2017 was not as hot at the 2016 versions. Some AGF friends had the same experience. Internet rumor is a possibility. But, I didn't read about it on the Internet. I experienced it and consulted with a friend who experienced the same thing. If I recall, he confirmed it with Taylor. I think re-designed is probably too strong a term.

[SpruceTop]

I generally attribute any slight differences on the input gain of my powered speaker to the size characteristics of the various Taylor models in which the ES2 is resident. The ES2, from its roll-out in a 2013 Taylor 516e FLTD that I owned, through to the present, has sported different-colored pickup-to-preamp wiring and preamp-to-battery box/jack wiring, and Phase Switch appearance. I'm not sure if this indicates any significant changes to the ES2 system and/or is guitar-model related.

At any rate, just how big a difference in ES2 output are we talking about in this thread? For me, from my November 2013 Taylor 516e FLTD to my September 2016 GS Mini-e with all onboard guitar knobs in their detent positions, I'd say the input gain on my Line 6 L2t has varied from maybe 4 to 5 on input gain dial travel just before the flashing red-light is activated on loudest strumming. This is dependent on which model guitar is plugged-in. I never paid much attention to this as this slight variance in input gain never caused me any alarm. Now, if the proper input gain setting on the active speaker went from 4 to 8 on the dial depending on which Taylor was plugged-in, I'd definitely think something was afoot with either a change in ES2 design and output or I had a defective ES2 system in one or more of my Taylors. Frankly, I'm ignorant on this matter as I need to audition a 2017 ES2-equipped Taylor, which I haven't done yet, to hear what the difference in ES2 output is compared to older ES2 systems.

With all onboard Taylor guitar controls set at DETENT, how much of a variance on INPUT GAIN of various amplification devices have folks out there seen between the ES2 OUTPUT of the newest Taylor ES2-equipped guitars and other 2013, 2014, 2015 and perhaps 2016 ES2-based Taylors?

[guitaniac]

Here's the link for the website info page on the ES-B (ES2 style transducers with side mount preamp). As you can see, the power supply is only 6v (two 3v lithium batteries), so its very likely that this variation of the ES2 system has a lower output than the regular version.

https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitar...ectronics/es-b


I'm still curious to hear what Taylor support says about the 2017 ES2. If it turns out that Taylor has indeed "quietly" lowered the system's gain, then the info which is currently on Taylor's ES2 info page can only be reinforcing users' concerns that something might be wrong with their 2017 model's ES2.

[Cochese]

Does anyone know what the OP is using the ES2 equipped guitar with? These guitar output discussions are always a bit puzzling to me since most acoustic amps are designed for the low level of piezo pickups and most mixers can easily amplify a low output source.

My Fishman Rare Earth Blend has the lowest output of all my acoustic pickups but it easily works into the line input of SoundCraft or Mackie mixers.

[guitaniac]

The Rare Earth Blend employs a 3v power supply, as does my iRig Acoustic Stage. Either one of my systems can handle the small iAS signal easily, but I have had trouble with the iAS at one particular open mic where the host has her little powered mixer set up for hotter pickups. I suspect that she could get enough signal boost if she raised the mixer's master level, but then she'd have to compensate by lowering the levels on the other channels.

I agree that players using their own gear should be able to deal with an atypically small signal, be we don't always have that luxury. There are some advantages to having a signal strength which is close to the norm.

One of the things that I dislike about the iRig Acoustic Stage is that the signal is compressed/limited like crazy when the volume knob is full up and I strum hard. (I discovered this with recording experiments.) The designers' were apparently so concerned with the little system's low signal strength that they sacrificed sufficient headroom for a bit more signal strength. (One work-around for this limiting problem is to never take the volume knob past halfway and to raise the gain at the mixer.)

Taylor claims that the ES2 enables "a more dynamic range of acoustic sound to be captured than ever before". If that's true, I personally wouldn't want the ES2 to be as hot as the Matrix (given the same 9v power supplies). If the systems were equally hot, I'd be worried that the ES2 system doesn't have enough headroom to accommodate "more dynamic range" when I'm strumming hard.

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

The Rare Earth Blend employs a 3v power supply, as does my iRig Acoustic Stage. Either one of my systems can handle the small iAS signal easily, but I have had trouble with the iAS at one particular open mic where the host has her little powered mixer set up for hotter pickups. I suspect that she could get enough signal boost if she raised the mixer's master level, but then she'd have to compensate by lowering the levels on the other channels.

...

I see your point Gary but even with a powered mixer there should be enough gain to get a small signal like the REB to the proper level. Microphone level<instrument level<line level. Once again this seems to come down to inexperience. I used to run a couple of open mics and always made things work, unfortunately many players out there think these systems are plug in and play and they never learn the basics or bother taking the time to read a manual.

Not to be hard lined about this but it's a lot easier to learn how to use the gear properly and cheaper than buying an unneeded device to make something work because the person operating the PA is clueless. If you know what you're doing you will have a lot more confidence being in these situations. I do this professionally and don't mean to sound like a know it all but I see this kind of thing happening all the time.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Cochese

...many players out there think these systems are plug in and play and they never learn the basics or bother taking the time to read a manual.

..it's a lot easier to learn how to use the gear properly and cheaper than buying an unneeded device to make something work because the person operating the PA is clueless. If you know what you're doing you will have a lot more confidence being in these situations.

Quoted for truth!

Anyone running sound, on any level, would do well to at least learn signal chain basics 101.

[guitaniac]

I mentioned before (in one of the ES2 level threads) that I routinely deal with a wide spectrum of signal levels without a problem. Its part of my job. I can't fault any players, however, for being concerned when a pickup system isn't behaving like they're expecting it to behave. That's especially true if the company info page is telling them that the pickup should be behaving differently than what they've been personally observing.

[Cochese]

Kind of hard to say. The OP states that the bridge saddles were changed a few times. He also keeps mentioning the pole pieces. There are no pole pieces. I've found adjusting the ES2 without enough tension will reduce the output a great deal though the OP mentions going to GC and checking out other guitars that seem the same. Maybe he should have a Taylor service center check it out.

[ii Cybershot ii]

Originally Posted by Cochese

Kind of hard to say. The OP states that the bridge saddles were changed a few times. He also keeps mentioning the pole pieces. There are no pole pieces. I've found adjusting the ES2 without enough tension will reduce the output a great deal though the OP mentions going to GC and checking out other guitars that seem the same. Maybe he should have a Taylor service center check it out.

I'm referring to the "tension screws" that push the sensors against the saddle. No they aren't true pole pieces, like in a magnetic pickup, but I think it's a pretty easy way to refer to them and not worth being confused about. Sorry for the confusion. They essentially do the same thing as pole pieces even though HOW they do it is different.

I have tried very full tension, as well as the sensors lightly touching and honestly there is hardly a difference. Once the sensors are in full contact, it's only a slight difference whether they are really tight against the saddle or not.

[ii Cybershot ii]

Originally Posted by Cochese

Does anyone know what the OP is using the ES2 equipped guitar with? These guitar output discussions are always a bit puzzling to me since most acoustic amps are designed for the low level of piezo pickups and most mixers can easily amplify a low output source.

My Fishman Rare Earth Blend has the lowest output of all my acoustic pickups but it easily works into the line input of SoundCraft or Mackie mixers.

Guitar -> compressor -> pedals -> amp

I just play in my bedroom and dare I say, I wouldn't use this ES2 outside of it!

Originally Posted by Cochese

I see your point Gary but even with a powered mixer there should be enough gain to get a small signal like the REB to the proper level. Microphone level<instrument level<line level. Once again this seems to come down to inexperience. I used to run a couple of open mics and always made things work, unfortunately many players out there think these systems are plug in and play and they never learn the basics or bother taking the time to read a manual.

Not to be hard lined about this but it's a lot easier to learn how to use the gear properly and cheaper than buying an unneeded device to make something work because the person operating the PA is clueless. If you know what you're doing you will have a lot more confidence being in these situations. I do this professionally and don't mean to sound like a know it all but I see this kind of thing happening all the time.

I can make the guitar loud... by turning up various things... however I just found it curious how quiet it was compared to the ES1 and Matrix... when Taylor specifically claimed it was a hotter pickup. I don't think it's "handicapped" per say.

The difference is enough that, without using my compressor to balance the signal, my Taylor is super quiet at bedroom levels when switching from my Matrix equipped guitar and not adjusting anything.

[guitaniac]

As luck would have it, our featured artist was playing an ES2-equipped Taylor 412 last night. He wasn't sure of the year, but it was pre-2017. I had to use a lot of gain with him (probably 35 or 40db), but there are several caveats.

Caveat #1 - I had to run him very loud in a noisy setting. I must note that we had no feedback problems. We had a little boominess here and there, but nothing serious.

Caveat #2 - He was using a Boss GE-7 graphic equalizer with the gain set flat and the mids cut (at 1.6KHz and 800KHz) pretty substantially. That's not an EQ setting that I could use with my boomy rigs, but it worked well for him.

Caveat #3 - He actually had the volume knob on his guitar set for a low output, stating that he gets a more pleasing tone (less brittle and harsh) with a low signal from his guitar and compensating with more gain at the mixer.

Go figure. If Taylor was getting similar observations from other ES2 users, it might be a reason for them to lower the system's gain (if they have indeed lowered its gain).

Ironically (in the context of this thread), his first observation about the pickup was that "Its too hot!". When I asked him to elaborate, he gave me the information relayed in Caveat #3.

The bottom line for me is that he gets a very nice feedback-free tone from his rig, and he can get it at a quite sufficiently loud (even for bare-fingered picking) volume level.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

Guitar -> compressor -> pedals -> amp

I just play in my bedroom and dare I say, I wouldn't use this ES2 outside of it!



I can make the guitar loud... by turning up various things... however I just found it curious how quiet it was compared to the ES1 and Matrix... when Taylor specifically claimed it was a hotter pickup. I don't think it's "handicapped" per say.

The difference is enough that, without using my compressor to balance the signal, my Taylor is super quiet at bedroom levels when switching from my Matrix equipped guitar and not adjusting anything.

I certainly don't blame you for being curious, or blame the other ES2 user (who's had so much trouble at open mics) for being concerned. I'm darn curious myself at this point. I hope that you'll make the inquiry to Taylor support as to why your ES2 rig has a lower output than your ES1 rig (contrary to the info on their website's ES2 page). Inquiring minds want to know what's up.

As for going out to play with your ES2 rig, just do it. If we all waited until we had complete control of the situation, nothing would ever get done.

I personally had an absolute train wreck trying to use my iRig Acoustic Stage in last night's noisy environment. It was rather unpleasant, but I learned that I'd better go with a more tried and tested setup for tomorrow's gig. (I love a UST/iRig Acoustic Stage blend for home recording, but a UST/Baggs Lyric blend seems much less feedback prone for live use.)

[guitaniac]

It appears that the "rumors" about changes for the ES2 preamp are true. Check post #3 in this thread'

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=478608