Jazz on a Taylor

Di B · #1 12-10-2002, 06:46 PM

Hello all,

I'm new here...actually just started playing guitar in April 2002.

Used to be a sax player with clarinet and flute doubles and played mostly jazz. I was getting along well, going to music school, playing in bands but lost my will along the way and quit altogether about twenty years ago.

So I've decided to come back as a guitarist. Always loved the things in all their various forms and never really had much to do with stringed instruments other than a brief foray into country blues playing what I thought was Yank Rachel style mandolin!

What's happened since April is a dream come true.
Have a great teacher and I'm really taking to the guitar more quickly than I could have imagined. He loves to play jazz and so did I years ago and surprisingly I've come far enough to start playing on standards...all that fake book stuff I had in my closet.

I'm learning on a 314ce which I figured to be a stepping stone towards some sort of archtop assuming this guitar thing took hold. Had no idea what a Taylor was when I bought it but it had the look, feel and sound of a good instrument.
As I progress it only gets better. So now I'm thinking....why not just play jazz on a Taylor? I mean the thing can be amplified and has a great sound...not like a Kenny Burrell or Grant Green sound but great in its own way.

So I'm asking if any of you are playing standards, swing, bop, and the like on your Taylors and which models you feel really shine with this kind of music.

Thanks

Di

#2 12-10-2002, 07:44 PM

Taylors with their clear tone and good dynamics make great jazz guitars! I started by playing blues but turned to jazz (percussive jazz, but jazz) when I started hearing great acoustic playing by the likes of John Mclaughlin, Antonio Forcione, Neil Stacey etc. I also like Martin Taylor to an extent (certainly respect him as a guitarist very highly) but cant see why not to use an acoustic instead of an archtop, or as a stepping stone if you like the more MT sound. I certainly have stuck by acoustic. (May get an archtop sometime later next year though, you know, for that sound!)
Jim
p.s Welcome to the forum!
__________________________________________
Lakewood A14c cedar/mah custom
Lakewood M20 engelmann/maple custom
M Seeliger C-12 Nylon spruce/rw

d28mikeip · #3 12-10-2002, 09:30 PM

While some people do play jazz on a flattop, I don't think it really sounds all that good. Unless you're playing a heavily altered flattop with subdued highs, your guitar is going to be way too trebly to get that *jazzy* fat tone. Archtops are the way to go.

cotten · #4 12-10-2002, 09:52 PM

Archtop IS the way to go if you're looking for that traditional archtop tone. However, that doesn't mean great jazz cannot be played on a flattop guitar, or any other instrument for that matter.

OK, so I'm not into bagpipe or digiredoo jazz - somebody probably is somewhere!

Jazz certainly has its traditional sounds and traditions. One of them is creative, sensitive artists who constantly push the envelope, trying new forms, new expressions, new instruments. Compared to many jazz innovators, someone who uses a flattop guitar is hardly different at all.

If you like it, go for it!

cotten

min7b5 · #5 12-10-2002, 10:27 PM

As much as I like the fat, round tone of an electric “jazz guitar”, I’m very attracted to the comparably huge frequency range of a steel string. To me it’s like comparing a Fender Rhodes to a Piano. The down side of course is that it’s not always so easy to play jazz on a steel string, at least compared to an electric guitar with nickel strings. I think the 314 makes a great jazz guitar. It may not have to be just a stepping stone to an archtop. I personally use a 712 as my only jazz guitar. If I was to play with a pick I might go for a bigger guitar, but the comfort and response of a X12 is perfect for me as a solo fingerstyle player.

cotten · #6 12-10-2002, 10:51 PM

Di B, if you haven't already listened to Eric's music, do it NOW. I'm no expert, but that sure sounds like good jazz to me!

cotten

Thanks, Eric!

Livingston · #7 12-10-2002, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by min7b5
As much as I like the fat, round tone of an electric “jazz guitar”, I’m very attracted to the comparably huge frequency range of a steel string. To me it’s like comparing a Fender Rhodes to a Piano.

Check out the sound of jazz guitar on a Taylor by listening to min7b5's CD, "Acoustic Jazz Guitar Solos," by Eric Skye. Hearing is believing.

By the way, Kenny Burrell plays an acoustic flat top as a regular part of his show and has been quoted as saying that the acoustic guitar is the true sound of the guitar. So many other great jazz guitarists also play and own flat top acoustics. I think very few play them in live settings because of the challenges they present when playing with a band.

As much as I love archtops, my first and greatest love is the acoustic steel string guitar and my Taylor 912C is the apple of my eye.

Stixx · #8 12-10-2002, 11:14 PM

Larry Carlton while being famous for the 335 Gibson he played a lot plays Jazz on the flat top guitar with quite heavey strings and he has a wonderful tone . Unique , very good tone and timbre.

Saw him play it on a video someone sent me , probably hot licks or something he was playing and talking technique and I was verry impressed.

Later

Di B · #9 12-11-2002, 04:02 AM

Hey this is nice....thanks for the replies. Not only can I have a new obsession but can "run on" about it with people that understand.

Of course one can play "jazz" on all sorts of non-traditional instruments and you all have touched on different ways I've been thinking about my current instrument in all sorts of contexts.....so that helps.

One thing I do know is that this 314ce is certainly not holding me back. My teacher's got me chording and playing all over the neck and the intonation and playability of this instrument is great. Bet there are lots of guitars you can't say that about. Especially like the sound of this guitar playing chords from about the 5th fret up. The middle strings sound great and the clarity brings out the subtle details when one plays substitutions and colors. Quite honestly can sit here and play on one great chord and its good for what ails me. The wonders afforded to a linear ex-reed player!

The only time I plug in is at my lesson. My teacher plays an L5....the kind with the humbuckers. When we play our duets the amplified Taylor works well and sounds good next to his. Of course its not the same but a good kind of different. (Like maybe an amplified flattop? )

I have yet to play it through my own amp and probably will not bother until the day comes when I feel like its time to find an opportunity to play out. So what all those electronics and controls offer will remain a mystery for awhile.

What I've listened to and loved for years, from Eddie Lang to Billy Bauer and beyond is not exactly where I'm going to be. Right now just trying to be the best player of a Taylor 314ce that I can be....time is short.

What it comes to is what I've known all along. Will just have to have flattops AND archtops. Notice the plural! Sick....but when I see some of you posting your lists of guitars it would appear that I'm in good company.

Thanks,

Di

alchu · #10 12-11-2002, 09:19 AM

and a classical

welcome to the forum, and enjoy your guitar!

Guitar Dad · #11 12-11-2002, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Livingston
Check out the sound of jazz guitar on a Taylor by listening to min7b5's CD, "Acoustic Jazz Guitar Solos," by Eric Skye. Hearing is believing.

Ditto...

min7b5 · #12 12-11-2002, 09:57 PM

If you want to get closer to a classic jazz tone on a steel string, I personally think two things to really look at are the pick and the pickup. I think using the round end of an extra heavy pick gives you something bigger and smoother sounding. If you give it a week to get used to it you may never go back. I actually think it’s much easier to play this way, though I don’t actually play with a pick most of the time so.... I happen to like Golden Gate picks a lot, which is basically a three sided pick with no point. Also the angle you hold the pick changes things quite a bit too. Check out Tuck’s essays on this topic at http://tuckandpatti.com/tuckscorner.shtml I’ve personally found that the kind of jazz tone I’m looking for on my acoustic guitar comes best from a magnetic sound hole pickup, at gigs anyway. Their are a lot of crappy soundhole pickups out there, I personally feel you’ve got to spend a few more bucks and look at either a Rare Earth, a Sunrise, or a Magmic. I like the Rare Earth a lot. Something like an ibeem probably sounds more natural, but the magnetic pickup gives you that little bit of “L5” you might be looking for, and if you’re going to be playing with a group, feedback is much less of an issue.
I remember that old Hot Licks video of Larry Carlton, it ends with playing amazing bop lines on his flat top while the credits are rolling, it was amazing.

GSnyde · #13 12-11-2002, 11:42 PM

Virtually all the great Brazilian-style Jazz guitarists I've seen play(ed) flattops. I also love the sound of archtops. I don't play much Jazz, but funky country blues sounds great on an old acoustic archtop.

Di B · #14 12-12-2002, 04:47 AM

Interesting about the picks Eric.

This is something I noticed early on. My teacher started me off using a thin pick and this guitar sounded a lot too bright to my ears at the time. I thought it was the guitar or the strings. But no it was the pick, the strings, and certainly the guitar to some extent.
I'm sure most of you went through this long ago.

I've since been using a .73 Tortex pick and makes for a mellower sound but with enough brightness to still hear the strengths that this guitar has. Haven't experimented a lot because I have a long way to go just learning to play!
As far as strings go, I'm still replacing them with the same type of Elixers that came with the guitar. Thats another thing I'm sure and would love to hear some options....or point me to a thread that covered this before.

Now where I am now is getting my chords and theory together and trying to hear and flatpick lines like Charlie Christian or Barney Kessel ("trying" is a very important word at this point). Comping chord changes and substitutions is a fine art in itself. I really appreciate a lot of players for that more than soloing sometimes. Haven't even begun to learn fingerstyle but am anxious to go there.

Now I hear people talking about loud acoustic guitars....archtops can be loud...dreadnaughts of course. Now won't these Fishman electronics make this non-loud 314ce workable in a small jazz ensemble using one of those SWR or Fender acoustic-electric amps? Just wondering....no working experience just yet.

Don't really want this Taylor to sound like an L5. Maybe I'll get a D'Angelico for that!

Thanks all for you're input. I think a lot about all this stuff and this is a great place to get some first hand knowledge and experience.

....and Eric....will definitely be getting a copy of your disc. Can't wait.

Di

Taylor Poor · #15 12-12-2002, 07:14 AM

I play and take lessons with a focus on Jazz. I do own a wonderful luthier made archtop that posseses a great traditional jazz tone. A little over a month ago, I was looking for something a little different from my archtop when I stumbled across a NS. To me it compliments my archtop very well. The NS produces a nice mellow tone with out jangly highs.

Steven King plays a flattop and has some great arragements on jazz chord melodies. Play what you like and whats pleasing to your ear. But do yourself a favor. Save up for a nice archtop! The neck, the action, and the overall style of the the guitar is so much more different than a flatop!