thoughts about pride: good, bad, depends...

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by Andromeda

That is what the middle course means. It doesn't mean not to give our best.

Well, I would say that the "middle course" could EASILY be interpreted as something between your worst and your best . . . that is, mediocre.

It's almost certainly not what the saying was meant to imply, but it's a legitimate literal interpretation of the words.

[Andromeda]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

Well, I would say that the "middle course" could EASILY be interpreted as something between your worst and your best . . . that is, mediocre.

It's almost certainly not what the saying was meant to imply, but it's a legitimate literal interpretation of the words.

Being driven always to do your best in everything can also be a symptom of a larger problem. Wisdom is to know when it is important to give your best and when to be mediocre. Mediocre is not always a bad thing. There are somethings I am grateful to be mediocre in...

[Otterhound]

Originally Posted by mc1

i think there can be no doubt about that. and the less thoughts about self, the better, in my opinion.

"If I am not for myself , who will be ?"
"If I am only for myself , what am I ?"
If one was to not think of self , who will they be ?
Balance is the key .

[Monk of Funk]

To me, pride is good. Taking pride in your work is good. To be proud of what you've accomplished is good, no matter what level you are. If you are proud, then you've accomplished, whether you've accomplish more or less than the next person, to me, doesn't matter, but that you've accomplished compared to your old person is great.

A task might be easier for one than another, so pride in accomplishing it, would be different for one and another.

But pride in the absence of humility is where i think it gets bad. Pride that makes you stop, and look back, and just be proud, without looking ahead i think is less nice.

Pride as in comparing yourself to another, I think is a bad source of pride.

There is pride of one's accomplishments, for the sake of the accomplishment, the work put in, for having overcome and conquered difficulties, then there is pride because you think you are better than others.

It's ok to recognize that you are more accomplished at something than someone else, like you might be good at guitar, and someone else might be good at being a lawyer or something like that. I mean, when you make it specific like that, it's not so bad. But just when you think being good at being a lawyer, or good at guitar, or having lots of money or what have you, makes you a better overall person than another, and you have pride in that sort of sense, then I don't think that's good. But I would also not really use the word pride to describe that I think.

[IndianaGeo]

"Pride" does seem to have a certain self-centeredness to it. But pride itself is a very human feeling. I feel that it exudes a sort of triumph over self-doubt and uncertainty, so in that sense I actually think it's a rather humble word, with an undertone of an admission that one is fallible.

IG

[mc1]

thanks for the thoughts. i've been thinking about this, and the wikipedia page was rather interesting. the word "pride" has a lot of meanings and uses, and it can't really be properly evaluated in a simple poll. but it does make for good brain fodder. funny how i find it so fascinating.

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I don't care much for working with people who DON'T "take pride" in their work.

i think it is possible to be meticulous and exacting in one's work without taking "pride" in it.

Originally Posted by ewalling

I think ideologies get reinterpreted according to the cultures in which they thrive. Our own culture sets a premium on individual achievement, and we reward those who are able to stand out from the crowd through their efforts and their ability to outrun their peers. To do this, the achiever typically requires a firm belief in self; I've often heard it said that the tennis champion may be no better than the other top seeds, but s/he has a conviction that s/he is better which makes all the difference. In all such endeavours, though, those who succeed seem to need a very powerful belief in themselves and their abilities.

How then does such a perception handle the supposed virtue of humility? How does the person who has built up their self-esteem to the pitch of championship winner then stand back and mutter something about "everything working out for me on the day" or even that they were "lucky"? I think they fake it. They fake it, and we suspend belief and pretend that they're being genuine. We grow up "knowing" that pride and ego-inflation are wrong, so we demand that our achievers publicly denounce their own successes through faint self-congratulation. If they didn't do it, unless their name were Mohammed Ali, we would tut-tut and pass negative judgments on them. In this way, we can have our cake and eat it. We can hold the conflicting principles of individual excellence and humility simultaneously in our minds without one canceling out the other.

reminds me of the warrior-knight stereotype, where the knight is supposed to be courageous, fearless, and violent, while the warrior (same person) is expected to be gallant, respectful, and chivalrous. when things backfire and the knight is ruthless or the warrior hesitant, it's somehow unexpected.

Originally Posted by Andromeda

Being driven always to do your best in everything can also be a symptom of a larger problem. Wisdom is to know when it is important to give your best and when to be mediocre. Mediocre is not always a bad thing. There are somethings I am grateful to be mediocre in...

this is very true. ironically, one could take pride in their ability to differentiate when mediocre is warranted.

Originally Posted by Otterhound

"If I am not for myself , who will be ?"
"If I am only for myself , what am I ?"
If one was to not think of self , who will they be ?
Balance is the key .

i think if one never thought of self, they would still be themselves, but less hindered by internal turbulence. it's still useful to self-evaluate, and to be self-aware. but in general, people tend to spend way to much time and energy thinking about themselves, in my proud (just kidding) opinion. with terse sentences like yours and mine it's impossible to fully grasp the intent and meaning, so it's helpful to cut each other a lot of slack.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by mc1

i think it is possible to be meticulous and exacting in one's work without taking "pride" in it.

It all depends on the definition of "pride" you're talking about:

• A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.

• Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.

• Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.

• A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.

• The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.

• An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.

• Mettle or spirit in horses.

• A company of lions.

• A flamboyant or impressive group.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

It all depends on the definition of "pride" you're talking about:

• A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.

• Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.

• Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.

• A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.

• The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.

• An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.

• Mettle or spirit in horses.

• A company of lions.

• A flamboyant or impressive group.

very true. in this particular case, i meant a company of lions.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by mc1

in this particular case, i meant a company of lions.

I thought so.

[mjz]

Originally Posted by Otterhound

"If I am not for myself , who will be ?"

Everyone else not concerned about self.

Originally Posted by Otterhound

"If I am only for myself , what am I ?"

selfish

Originally Posted by Otterhound

If one was to not think of self , who will they be ?

the same self, just more free, more at peace, and more grateful.

Originally Posted by Otterhound

Balance is the key .

To justifying why we can't do it maybe.

max


By the way, I stink at selflessnes

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by Andromeda

Being driven always to do your best in everything can also be a symptom of a larger problem. Wisdom is to know when it is important to give your best and when to be mediocre. Mediocre is not always a bad thing. There are somethings I am grateful to be mediocre in...

Those are powerful words Bill. I like them. I too am very grateful to be mediocre in things simply because I can do them and it makes me happy.

[Bluepoet]

I think lions would like pizza, but only the kinds with some sort of meatiness (the pizza, not the lions). Of course, it would be the females who would hunt it down, but they'd certainly share it with the lazy males, who would then let everyone know how fierce their pride is/was/ever shall be...

Pride comes before a fall,
but what a spectacular fall it will be...

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Bluepoet

I think lions would like pizza, but only the kinds with some sort of meatiness (the pizza, not the lions). Of course, it would be the females who would hunt it down, but they'd certainly share it with the lazy males, who would then let everyone know how fierce their pride is/was/ever shall be...

but without hubris, or feeling proud, as pride seems to be a uniquely human emotion arising from self-awareness, self-respect, self-esteem, self-identification, self-denial, and self-inflation. and by hunt it down, i'll assume you mean call in the order.

why do i think a video of tossing a pizza (meat lovers or plain cheese or half and half) into a pride of lions would go viral?

Originally Posted by Bluepoet

...

Pride comes before a fall,
but what a spectacular fall it will be...

first i tripped over my pride, then i slipped on my hubris. but i got up, dusted myself off, and patted myself on the back for how spectacular it was.

It's actually pretty simple if you think about it. There's a "pride" that is conceit and a "pride" that is delight. When one says, "I'm better than you," it is conceit. When one says, "I'm proud of you, son," it's delight. The former is self-focused; the latter is others-focused. Even being proud of one's accomplishments can be a good pride, although it can easily turn to conceit. One can acknowledge the role others had in helping him reach those accomplishments as well as recognize that his natural abilities are gifts, and not earned. On the other hand, it turns to conceit when one thinks he is self-sufficient and cannot learn from others.

I think we all easily recognize "good" and "bad" pride when we see it in others. It can be a lot harder when it comes to examining our own lives.

[golfreggie]

Zig Ziglar, the well know motivational speaker and trainer, describes PRIDE as Personal Resposiblity In Daily Endeavors. He says that "Vanity" is false pride. Makes sense to me