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  #31  
Old 12-04-2017, 02:27 PM
amyFB amyFB is offline
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http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/download/FQBK-handbook.pdf

This is the reference book that I pick up the most when I have questions about music theory.

Don't let the word 'jazz' scare you - it's chock full of information - jammed full to the brim, overflowing almost.

Go right to page 14 & 15 for the modes discussion.
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  #32  
Old 12-04-2017, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by amyFB View Post
http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/download/FQBK-handbook.pdf

This is the reference book that I pick up the most when I have questions about music theory.

Don't let the word 'jazz' scare you - it's chock full of information - jammed full to the brim, overflowing almost.

Go right to page 14 & 15 for the modes discussion.
OMG thanks Amy That will keep me busy for a lifetime. Bob.
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  #33  
Old 12-04-2017, 02:44 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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I have not read everything, so sorry of its already been posted....

a piano is by far the easiest wat to see and understand them...in simple terms, as long as you know the letter names of the notes on a piano, you know your modes...

they are simply scales that have NO BLACK KEYS....

they are simply scales that start on one note, say the C and walk all the way up on the white keys until you come to C again....

so what is called a C major scal is also what is call an Ionian modal scale...

If we go next door to the D, a Dorian mode scale is simply walking uo from the D on the white keys, until you hit the next D. Or simply D to D and all the white keys in between are a Dorian scale...

So each scale has its own INTERVAL PATTERN....which is the key to any scale....for example a major scales interval points are the half steps between the 3 and 4 and the 7 and 8 ....or quite simply ANY scale is simply a series of whole or half steps ascending or descending to the starting note....or going back home to the starting point,just either up an octave or down and octave

So we could be playing in the key of A minor and then if we wanted, play a Dorian scale over that simply by using the INTERVALS of the D to D scale THE PATTERN STAYS THE SAME RELATED TO HALF OR WHOLE STEPS...but you would end up playing different notes if you were in A minor than if you were to play a D dorian mode over say Dminor
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  #34  
Old 12-04-2017, 02:54 PM
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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It's pretty fascinating to me to hear the dorian for C minor, which sounds like Santana and all that is caused by adding a few notes to the C minor Pentatonic.
Yep, Dorian equals Santana :-) It's really easy to compare Dorian to Aolean (natural minor), just raise the 6th note. So C natural minor uses an Ab, C Dorian uses an A. For harmony, play Cm, Fm to hear the natural minor sound, play Cm Fmaj to hear Dorian.

Minor scales are always interesting, because as long as they include the minor 3rd, you can include just about any other notes and it will sound ok, and depending on what note you play, there is a characteristic sound that probably has a name. And you can mix them. For example, you can play the 5th of course (G), then the next note up could be Ab (Natural minor), or A (Dorian), next play Bb (the 7th, common to many minor forms) and/or B natural, which is the 7th in the harmonic minor scale. They all fit, and imply a different type of scale if you want to analyze it. You can even use all these notes, and there are well known songs that use all 4 of these notes, effectively flipping thru different types of minor scales and modes (hint: a song that starts with "stairway"...)
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  #35  
Old 12-04-2017, 03:54 PM
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[QUOTE=jessupe;5557812]I have not read everything, so sorry of its already been posted....

a piano is by far the easiest wat to see and understand them...in simple terms, as long as you know the letter names of the notes on a piano, you know your modes...

they are simply scales that have NO BLACK KEYS....

Funny you should mention that, I have a piano and was doing what you said, but I didn't pick up on the interval changes, so it didn't stick.

To all:There is some major talent on this site and I am overwhelmed by the generosity of your time. Doug, I remember you from looking at guitar demo videos and stole one of your Jazz compositions from the video. I think it was the Martin 000C video. Your name just clicked in my brain.
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  #36  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:25 PM
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I made little video a few years ago https://youtu.be/fU9ygo81vOc that is sort of a beginning lesson in how to use modes, without using the greek names for them
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  #37  
Old 12-05-2017, 03:09 AM
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Since I practice and "perform" in my living room, mostly alone, but sometimes with my brother, I find that I get the most enjoyment doing call and response type playing. Playing a chord, then doing a lick or fill before the next chord. In addition, looping a progression and trying to come up with a solo or melody line.

Already, with some of the suggestions in this thread I hear a major change in the sound of the melody/solo using notes added by the dorian mode.

I guess you may use part of the dorian scale, or all of it depending on the chords in the progression.

It's pretty fascinating to me to hear the dorian for C minor, which sounds like Santana and all that is caused by adding a few notes to the C minor Pentatonic.

When my brother comes over, I can have him play a progression and I can "show off" what I have learned here.

The other thing is.... the scales sound more complex than the pentatonic, which to me begin to sound too simple after awhile.

My goal is to make the guitar "speak" which is different than plastering notes all over a chord progression. I think I am on the right road now.
I think you are too! Those are all good observations.

What the modes do (assuming you pick the right ones ) is add two more expressive notes to the pentatonic. The pentatonic (major or minor) contains the 3 chord tones, plus two good consonant extensions.

Major pent = 1-3-5, plus 2nd (9th) and 6th
Minor pent = 1 b3-5, plus 4th (11th) and b7

All good, all fairly bland. What the modes add are the following:

Ionian (major) = major pent plus 4th and maj7. The 4th makes a suspension (resolving to 3) and the maj7 is a "sweet note".

Mixolydian = major pent plus 4 and b7. The b7 is a tension that either resolve dow on on the next chord, or hangs around as a blue note.

Lydian = major pent plus #4 and maj7. The #4 is a very distinctive colour. It tends to resolve up to the 5, but can sometimes hang on as an unusual colour on top of a chord. (In jazz they say lydian has "no avoid notes", meaning every note of the scale can be held as chord extensions against the chord.)
A very lydian resolution is to take the #4 down to the M3 of the chord. (Think George Harrison's "Blue Jay Way" - "I may be a-slee-eep."). Joe Satriani does the same thin in the vamp on Flying in a Blue Dream.

Aeolian (natural minor) = minor pent plus 2 (9) and b6. The 9th is a very sweet note on a minor chord. The b6 resolves down to 5.

Dorian = minor pent plus 2 and 6. Like lydian, this mode has "no avoid notes". The major 6th is a particularly distinctive colour. It's quite common when ending a minor key tune to add the 9th or the 6th (or even both) on top of the triad.

Phrygian = minor pent plus b2 and b6. The b2 is the obvious "phrygian effect", a dark tension, resolving strongly down to the root.

You should experiment with all these, over backing tracks containing just one chord (major or minor). (Or get your brother to play chord of course!)
But be aware that you can't just "apply" these effects when improvising on existing tunes. The modes of a piece are usually already written into it, and you just have to pick up on whatever they are. Normally only one scale fits a group of chords, sometimes a whole song. It's usually a mistake to use a different scale or mode on every chord. (Try it if you want, but it will probably sound wrong, as well as being a headache to think about!)
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  #38  
Old 12-05-2017, 04:06 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amyFB View Post
http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/download/FQBK-handbook.pdf

This is the reference book that I pick up the most when I have questions about music theory.

Don't let the word 'jazz' scare you - it's chock full of information - jammed full to the brim, overflowing almost.

Go right to page 14 & 15 for the modes discussion.
The book is indeed chock full of useful info, and has much to recommend it - but I suggest IGNORING anything to do with SCALES and CHORD-SCALE THEORY.

Jamey Aebersold deserves huge respect and admiration (possibly some kind of medal) for all the playalong CDs and booklets he's produced over the years. When I was learning jazz (80s/90s) all my fellow amateurs used them, and there were basically no other practice aids available. They were great because the CDs used real live musicians, so you had a pro rhythm section to play over. And books had the melodies (in notation of course) and chord symbols.

But where his whole system went too far was in its focus on chord-scale theory (CST) - one of the most misleading concepts ever invented in jazz theory. As far as improvisation goes, CST takes your eye off the ball. It's responsible for all those countless jazz amateurs noodling away aimlessly, producing solos with zero musical value. (And yes that included most of those fellow amateurs of mine, and even me on occasion - when I forgot all the lessons I'd learned about improvising from records before I ever studied jazz....)

In particular, pages 14-15 are probably the worst in the whole book. Page 14 in particular deserves to be torn out and thrown away (you'd lose page 13 too if you did that, but that's no great loss either). There is certainly no "modes discussion" there. (It would be good if there was, but it's simply a list of scales, mostly useless, and the wrong emphasis on the few that are useful.)

Page 15 has a useful guide to jazz chord symbol shorthand (right-hand column), but gives the totally wrong-headed impression that those scales on the left produce those chords on the right.
Yes, they do. But music doesn't work like that.
IOW, chords as used in actual music are not derived from strings of different scales. They are derived first of all from the KEY (major or minor scale), and then by various alterations of that scale, introduced to make sequences more interesting with "chromatic voice-leading".

The jazz CST perspective is that those alterations suggest whole new scales - which indeed they can, but then the pedagogy (such as Aebersold's) focuses on those scales, and not on their function (melodic and harmonic). Students end up drowning in scales, scales, scales... learning them, practising them, memorising which chords they fit... then it's no surprise they can't actually make music at the end of all that.

The idea of CST derives in the first place from modal and post-modal jazz, in which the old model of functional harmony (based on "keys") was broken down. In that music, you would have individual chords with usually no connection to chords either side. So you needed some kind of guide as to what notes would fit. CST answered that need. Indeed it supported a whole new way of making music.
But then some foolish people (and I'm afraid to say Aebersold is among them) decided it would be a good idea to apply this shiny new theory to old-fashioned jazz standards - the kind of tunes that have "chord progressions". It's a classic category error.

As I say, there is plenty of great stuff in the book. Page 4, eg, is flawless; gold. Good stuff too on pages 9 and 10. You could do worse than keep those pages and throw the rest of the book away! (Obviously, if it's jazz you're into, you will find a lot more of use in there. But even if you're a jazz obsessive, please ignore page 14...)
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Last edited by JonPR; 12-05-2017 at 04:19 AM.
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  #39  
Old 12-05-2017, 02:02 PM
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Default melody from modes?

I have a book that shows the pentatonic plus the various adds for each mode. Taking the dorian fingering for example, of any given key, I have been noodling around with the notes coming up with my own phrases, or riffs or licks. So I assume this gives me fills to use after playing(maybe strumming) the chord.

I guess the next challenge is to figure out other chords to form the song progression, and that comes from the chords available in each key(?) And sometimes rather than strumming the chord progression then the phrasing, maybe just the phrasing. The real aha moment for me is the interesting sounds that the mode notes add, and figuring the passing or transition notes to the main notes. The pentatonic was sounding "entry level", this is so much more interesting.

My sincere thanks to all.
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  #40  
Old 12-05-2017, 03:19 PM
1neeto 1neeto is offline
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Awesome thread! Modes is something that totally intimidate me. When I write my stuff I stick to major or minor scales for melodies and pentatonic for soloing. The result is that my songs kinda all sound the same. Iím starting to pick up my electrics again so I think Iíll get off that major minor pentatonic box for once.
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  #41  
Old 12-06-2017, 04:57 AM
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Awesome thread! Modes is something that totally intimidate me. When I write my stuff I stick to major or minor scales for melodies and pentatonic for soloing. The result is that my songs kinda all sound the same. I’m starting to pick up my electrics again so I think I’ll get off that major minor pentatonic box for once.
You have the right foundation to start experimenting with modes.

At risk of more intimidation, think of it as follows:

Major scale = Ionian mode.
You want mixolydian? Just lower the 7th. And adapt any chords accordingly.
E.g., if you're in key of A major (which may use chords D, E(7), F#m, Bm, C#m), lower the G# to G. That gets rid of your E and C#m chords. Use Em and G instead (forget about C#dim, you don't want that!).
Just remember you're not in the key of D major. It's all the same notes and chords, but A is your key chord and key centre.
You will find this an extremely familiar sound. Mixolydian is probably a more common sound in rock music than the major scale.
BTW, don't be tempted to solo in A minor pent. That just turns it in Blues . Use A major pent, and add D (4th) and G (b7).
The simple version is just an A7 chord, while you improvise over it using the D major scale (A as root note, listening for the effect of the C# and G).

Minor scale = aeolian mode.
You want dorian? Just raise the 6th, and adapt any chords accordingly.
E.g., in the key of A minor, you have the chords Am, Dm, E (yes), C, F, G. Maybe Bm7b5 or G#dim7 if you're getting jazzy (but I'm guessing not... ) E major (or E7) is a harmonic minor chord, so lose that. And Dm will be replaced with D (or D7), and you can now have Bm(7) in place of that jazzy Bm7b5. You can use Em, which belongs to both A aeolian and A dorian.
Again, this is a really common sound in rock. You'll have heard Am7-D7 (back and forth) countless times.
You can solo in A minor pentatonic here, but be sure to add the B (2nd) and F# (6th) for the full dorian effect.
The simple version is just an Am7, while you solo over it using the G major scale (A as root, listening for the effect of the B and F#).
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:23 PM
1neeto 1neeto is offline
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You have the right foundation to start experimenting with modes.

At risk of more intimidation, think of it as follows:

Major scale = Ionian mode.
You want mixolydian? Just lower the 7th. And adapt any chords accordingly.
E.g., if you're in key of A major (which may use chords D, E(7), F#m, Bm, C#m), lower the G# to G. That gets rid of your E and C#m chords. Use Em and G instead (forget about C#dim, you don't want that!).
Just remember you're not in the key of D major. It's all the same notes and chords, but A is your key chord and key centre.
You will find this an extremely familiar sound. Mixolydian is probably a more common sound in rock music than the major scale.
BTW, don't be tempted to solo in A minor pent. That just turns it in Blues . Use A major pent, and add D (4th) and G (b7).
The simple version is just an A7 chord, while you improvise over it using the D major scale (A as root note, listening for the effect of the C# and G).

Minor scale = aeolian mode.
You want dorian? Just raise the 6th, and adapt any chords accordingly.
E.g., in the key of A minor, you have the chords Am, Dm, E (yes), C, F, G. Maybe Bm7b5 or G#dim7 if you're getting jazzy (but I'm guessing not... ) E major (or E7) is a harmonic minor chord, so lose that. And Dm will be replaced with D (or D7), and you can now have Bm(7) in place of that jazzy Bm7b5. You can use Em, which belongs to both A aeolian and A dorian.
Again, this is a really common sound in rock. You'll have heard Am7-D7 (back and forth) countless times.
You can solo in A minor pentatonic here, but be sure to add the B (2nd) and F# (6th) for the full dorian effect.
The simple version is just an Am7, while you solo over it using the G major scale (A as root, listening for the effect of the B and F#).


Super helpful mano thanks!
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  #43  
Old 12-07-2017, 03:21 AM
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Also check out classic rock tunes written in modes (although - with one or two exceptions - they didn't know it then ):

MIXOLYDIAN

Beatles - Tomorrow Never Knows, She Said She Said, Within You Without You (most of it), Norwegian Wood (first section), If I Needed Someone (verse). (Lennon and Harrison both loved that mode. McCartney not so much, although he succumbed in the coda to Hey Jude.)
Stones - The Last Time, Sympathy for the Devil (verse, not chorus).
Free - All Right Now
Them - Gloria
Kingsmen - Louie Louie

Mixolydian is extremely common as a verse groove in rock, while choruses often switch to the parallel major key. Some examples above, but also more Beatles, like Hard Days Night. G'n'R Sweet Child o' Mine.

The practice of "mode mixture" is so familiar, in fact, you might not give it a second thought. How many songs do know in key of E major that also contain a D chord? Maybe a G, C or Am too? Breaking rules? Nope - following a rule, called "mode mixture". It combines chords from the major and minor scales on the same keynote. Almost everybody does it, which means it's a "rule".
It means that rock songs which stick to one scale (or mode) are pretty rare. Rock musicians are not interested in theoretical purity! (Well, except on those rare occasions when they are...)

DORIAN

The classic (pure) dorian examples are:
Santana (Tito Puente): Oye Como Va
Miles Davis: So What
Michael Jackson: Thriller
Beatles: Love You To

Otherwise, you get mode mixture examples, where dorian is combined with parallel minor (much like mixolydian gets combined with parallel major):
Van Morrison: Moondance - dorian vamp and verse, minor key pre-chorus and chorus
Santana: Evil Ways - mostly dorian, but a minor key (major) V chord on the end.
Doors: Light My Fire - mixed modes on A, chorus in D, with a (long) A dorian solo; Riders on the Storm - E dorian, with E aeolian chorus.
Pink Floyd: Breathe; Shine on You Crazy Diamond - both open with dorian vamps or grooves, then mix in other modes later.
Beatles: Eleanor Rigby - mixed dorian and aeolian modes on E.

AEOLIAN

This is really the natural minor scale, but is conventionally altered (harmonic and melodic minor) to create the minor "key". So you could say that any minor key song is an example of "mixed mode". Hotel California, House of the Rising Sun, Sultans of Swing - all classic minor key tunes (not modal).
But there are some examples in rock/pop of pure aeolian, for comparison:

Dylan / Hendrix: All Along the Watchtower
Stones: Gimme Shelter
Kate Bush: Running up that Hill
Sade: Smooth Operator
Nirvana: Smells Like Teen Spirit (vocal melody)
REM: Losing My Religion (very brief move to parallel major in the middle)

LYDIAN

Very rare! You get occasional hints of lydian in some tunes, but hardly worth mentioning. The best example of pure (and deliberate) lydian I know in rock is Joe Satriani's 'Flying in a Blue Dream'. It's mainly in C lydian, but moves to Ab lydian, G lydian and F lydian at points. IOW, this is different from "mode mixture", where you mix different modes with the same keynote. This is using the same mode on different keynotes - which is a common modal jazz thing.
George Harrison's 'Blue Jay Way' has a nice lydian moment, when he sings "I may be a-slee-eep", where the last 2 notes are F#-E over a C major chord. Otherwise the rest of the song combines C diminished arpeggios with C major.

PHRYGIAN

Also very rare, except in a few metal riffs (Metallica's Wherever I May Roam), or the occasional use of an F chord to resolve to Em (Moody Blues 'Nights in White Satin', which otherwise mixes E aeolian and dorian).
Pure phrygian:
Pink Floyd: Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun - mostly E phrygian, moving to A phrygian and back.
Slightly less pure:
Clash: London Calling (phrygian verse, aeolian intro and bridge)
Dr Who theme: (E phrygian moving to G major)
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Last edited by JonPR; 12-07-2017 at 03:28 AM.
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