Improvisation Hurdle(s)

[Ray B]

I've been playing "off & on" for many years. I was originally taught to fingerpick (Travis-pick style) and have learned several songs, in which I pick melody lines as well as pattern picking.

I did not spend much time learning scales, theory, etc. I learned a bunch of 1st position chords and made my way through.

About a year ago I decided that I wanted to expand my skills and do some serious work at improving my playing. As I was now retired, I had both the time and, IMO, the motivation.

During the past year, I've concentrated on learning/playing scales: major, minor, pentatonics, etc. I've spent a fair amount of time with music theory. I'm becoming more comfortable with most all of the fretboard: "where things are ..." Different chord voicings have become more frequent in my playing. I've taken a series (still in progress) of private lessons from a couple of excellent teachers, etc.

To my satisfaction I've learned quite a bit (I enjoy the learning process) and can play with more feeling and fluidity, and can even flatpick a little; BUT, I can't seem to get by the hurdle of learning to improvise -- play a lead line. I seem to have a mental block in that area.

I've tried playing along with recordings, used a loop pedal with my in-house amp, played against pre-recorded jam tracks, etc. I'm getting pretty frustrated with the process.

Have others of you faced/conquered similar difficulties (or did that part of guitar playing seem to come "naturally")? Am I trying to make it happen too fast (i.e., not giving it enough time to boil & brew)?

Sorry for the long post, but I trully would like to get by this roadbloack (or, perhaps learn to be satisfied with what I CAN do) and felt I needed to try to explain where I'm at and have been.

Any suggestions you can give are appreciated.

Ray

[vac4873]

Stick with it, it is one of those things that will "suddenly appear" soon enough. A good starting place is to just learn a song with a simple melody. Put the chords down, and learn just to play the melody over the chords. Once that is comfortable, use some of the scale notes to "connect" the melody. The next step is to come up with a little bit of an alteration of the melody, and incorporate that. The next thing you know, improvising will seem quite natural.

If need be, depending on how good your ear is to start with, you can get the notation or tab of the melody line to work with at first. Relative pitch can be learned by simply using the skill, you need not have perfect pitch to become an excellent improviser.

[Ray B]

Thank you for getting back to me. Those are good suggestions and I'll give them a try. I appreciate the support.

Ray

[JoeNewbie]

Ray,

Hang in there...

A lot of people think improvising is "original" every time. It isn't. Improvising means using your vocabulary in a personal and hopefully tasteful way. Most blues guys who improvise play a bunch of licks that have been heard over and over already.

I grew up playing classical piano. I know all of my scales and arpeggios but yet I can't play blues/jazz/pop because my repertoire is limited to classical.

On the other hand, I "could" play scales and arpeggios on my guitar but I never practiced it very seriously. However, I know a lot of riffs and solos from myriad artists, and when I improvise I just blend everything together.

Sounds to me like you're a pretty serious player so my advice to you, unless you want to become the next King Crimson, is to stick with the riffs you already know and try to place them in a different context while remaining tasteful.

Cheers,

Joe

[FLDavid]

John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" is a touchstone for improvising on any instrument
If you have a few extra moments (and I know that "extra moments" are hard to come by) search out some examples of what highly skilled musicians have achieved on the tune
Although I will never reach the level of virtuoso, I find inspiration in those who are able to scale (no pun intended) these heights
Here is an example (under two minutes, but you'll get the idea)

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by FLDavid

John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" is a touchstone for improvising on any instrument

That's going for a PhD, I think the OP is asking for ways to get started :-) Studying and learning others solos, stealing their licks, etc, is the most useful thing to do, but start simple. Blues is always a good place to start.

[FLDavid]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

. . . I think the OP is asking for ways to get started. . .

Fair enough. . .
Okay, begin on the 5th and play an ascending figure
or start on the 7th and play a descending figure
. . .now combine these two approaches, and do not feel obligated to resolve everything (or anything)
and do not feel obligated to fill every space (obviously, what you do not play is as important as the notes you do play)
It's about tension and release

[JohnDWilliams]

The most important part is to LISTEN.

Start with just a couple notes in any key and concentrate on how they sound. You can do this over some sort of pre-recorded chords or just by itself with nothing else.

Don't try to play too many notes and don't try to play in any style. Just listen.

Listen to how the notes sound when played in different orders. Think about putting the same note in a different place in time.

Think melodies, play what you like to hear, but most of all LISTEN.

[Bob Womack]

I started right after I started playing. Back then, there weren't any books or aids. The way you learned was to copy other people's solos - specifically those who played the way you wanted to play. Doing so and doing it well requires you to learn their playing style and the methodology. You had to learn another man's licks and his way of enter into and exiting from a lick or figure. So, expose yourself and learn. The more you learn, the more you develop an understanding of the mechanics. Always do so with an eye towards modifying another's technique and making it your own.

I've got an instructional page about improv and developing a solo HERE, if you are interested.

Bob

[Ray B]

Again, you folks are great! Thank you. I certainly will take your words and try to operationalize the concepts.

Bob, I've printed out your paper on soloing and will read it through tonight.

Thanks again,

Ray

[Bob Womack]

My pleasure!

Bob

[ELK]

Patterns that go up or down a a scale are useful for connecting riffs. These are not simply playing up or down the scale, but things like a two up/one down approach, not necessarily using every note of the scale. To get a feel for this, use the pentatonic minor scale (notes 1-3-4-5-7 of the minor scale) over a blues based song and walk some paterns up and down the scale, eg: 3-1-3-4-3-4-5-4-5-7-5-7-1-7-1-3-1-3-then immediately break into a repeating riff like the classic Chuck Berry riff: 4 on Gstring bent up to 5-5 on B string-1 on high E string; repeat . . .

[MrGreen]

Originally Posted by Ray B

I've been playing "off & on" for many years. I was originally taught to fingerpick (Travis-pick style) and have learned several songs, in which I pick melody lines as well as pattern picking.

I did not spend much time learning scales, theory, etc. I learned a bunch of 1st position chords and made my way through.

About a year ago I decided that I wanted to expand my skills and do some serious work at improving my playing. As I was now retired, I had both the time and, IMO, the motivation.

During the past year, I've concentrated on learning/playing scales: major, minor, pentatonics, etc. I've spent a fair amount of time with music theory. I'm becoming more comfortable with most all of the fretboard: "where things are ..." Different chord voicings have become more frequent in my playing. I've taken a series (still in progress) of private lessons from a couple of excellent teachers, etc.

To my satisfaction I've learned quite a bit (I enjoy the learning process) and can play with more feeling and fluidity, and can even flatpick a little; BUT, I can't seem to get by the hurdle of learning to improvise -- play a lead line. I seem to have a mental block in that area.

I've tried playing along with recordings, used a loop pedal with my in-house amp, played against pre-recorded jam tracks, etc. I'm getting pretty frustrated with the process.

Have others of you faced/conquered similar difficulties (or did that part of guitar playing seem to come "naturally")? Am I trying to make it happen too fast (i.e., not giving it enough time to boil & brew)?

Sorry for the long post, but I trully would like to get by this roadbloack (or, perhaps learn to be satisfied with what I CAN do) and felt I needed to try to explain where I'm at and have been.

Any suggestions you can give are appreciated.

Ray

My advice is to learn to first use the notes which make up the chords your playing over.

Say your playing over a simple chord sequence of two bars of G major then two bars of C major. From your music theory you'll know that the G chord contains G, B, D while the C chord contains C, E, G. Record or get some to play the chord sequence. Start off by trying to make up melodies using just the notes G, B and D over the G major chord and just the note C, E and G over the C major chord. Don't get too complecated. One note per beat will do.

When your happy with the above, try adding in other notes from a scale. Which scale depends upon what style of music you want to play. The G major scale will give you a nice melodic sound but for blues, bluegrass and acoustic rock you may find you prefer the sound of notes from a different scale.

For a very general starting point try notes form these scale:

Minor pentatonic or mixolydian scale for blues and rock

Major, Major pentatonic or mixolydian for blue grass

Major scale etc, etc, etc for jazz :-)

Keep it simple and keep refering back to those chord tones, they are your safe home notes. Ensure you can find them in your scale patterns. When your lost and you want to find your way again play a chord tone.

Some may say the above scales are too advanced for a beginner but, I'm guessing you have done a lot of homework and would like to get something from that music theory.

Others have suggested start to start by learning a tune then changing or expanding that. That idea works well for jazz standards and some bluegrass. For rock and blues the guitar part is often played using a different scale to that used for the vocal line. e.g. voal line = major scale while guitar part = minor pentatonic.

Good luck and hope you have fun, Green

[Ray B]

You folks are a great resource!! I really appreciate this forum.

After a few days away from home, I'm back to getting into the practice mode and I'll be trying out your suggestions later today ... at least starting again.

It helps a lot to get this sort of support when the "frustrations" hit. It also helps to get my head around a better direction for me to explain my learning style to my guitar instructor so we can use our time together more effectively.

Thanks again,

Ray

[kak1154]

I struggle with this as well. Something else you can try (I don't think it was mentioned, I just skimmed) is to just improvise vocally. Hum a short improvised melody over a backing track, and then try to recreate it on guitar. Rinse and repeat. It will be slow going at first, but you'll build up more proficiency and a vocabulary of licks. The key is that you aren't limited at the beginning by your (lack of) technical prowess on the fretboard.