Godin 5th Avenue
 

Here's a tip - don't take all the strings off when doing a setup on a Godin 5th Avenue. The bridge, nut and tailpiece all fell off and I have no idea how to put it back together. L&M want 60 bucks to put it back together. Alas, another guitar for the closet :(

Yep! It's that way on just about all archtops. Everything from a Bourgeois LC-4 that I just traded all the way to my Gretsch Brian Setzer has a loose bridge like that.

It's pretty easy to put back on yourself though. For $60, I would set it back up and then pay them to make the fine adjustments to get the intonation set correctly again (the most difficult part).

For the record though, it's much better for a guitar's neck to change strings one at a time whether or not it's an archtop.

You might expand your "tip" to say not to take all the strings off *any* archtop guitar, mandolin, banjo, etc. for a "setup" if you don't know what you're doing - all have floating bridges not attached to the top...

The notion that changing the strings one at a time is any better for the neck, though, is an old myth.

Rob, it's not hard to reassemble those pieces. You just need a bit of time and - even more importantly - a little bit of patience to get it functional again.

First, get a yardstick or a tape measure and measure the distance from the nut slot to the 12 fret. Let's say for the sake of discussion that it's 12 1/2 inches (knowing Godin it's probably a shade shorter than that.) But if it's 12 1/2", then go that distance from the 12 fret to the middle of the top.

Place the base of the movable bridge so that the middle of it is right at that 12 1/2" mark. Now use some low tack masking tape to tape the bridge base to the top at that spot.

Now slide the nut back into its slot, taking care that the wider slots for the heavier strings are on the bass side of the neck. (It probably won't go in any other way, but be alert, nonetheless.) It might be a good idea to put a couple of dots of white Elmer's glue on the underside of the nut, just to lightly tack it in place so it won't just fall out again at the slightest excuse the next time it has the opportunity.

It'll still be easily removable if need be, but with a dot or two of glue it won't slip away from you so easily.

Next figure out what you need to do to put the tailpiece back together. Looking at this picture of a Godin Fifth Avenue, it looks as though the tailpiece is securely screwed on:

http://www.mosayk.ca/studio/Godin002.jpg

So I'm a little puzzled as to how yours could have just come loose the way you describe. Is it completely loose and off the instrument, or just no longer in position pointed towards the bridge?

If it just flopped over once the string tension was released, it's easily folded back into place.

Anyway, with the nut in place and the bridge taped down more or less where it should be, start restringing the instrument. I prefer to go from the inside out when I restring guitars and mandolins with movable bridges - I find they tend to keep their correct bridge alignment and position better that way.

Once you've got the guitar restrung and the strings tuned to concert pitch, test the intonation of the bridge location by fretting each string at the octave and seeing how the notes read on an electronic tuner. If the notes are a bit flat, you need to move the bridge closer to the nut. If they're sharp, the bridge has to go the other way, towards the tailpiece.

Naturally you'll want to remove the masking tape so you can shift the bridge around as needed.

Once you get the bridge in the right spot and every note is sounding as true as you can get it, there's no shame in putting a pencil mark or a little bit of tape around the feet of the bridge, so you have a future reference mark. For that matter, you might already be able to see a faint indentation on the top where the bridge was originally located.

Anyway, it seems a shame to consign a nice new guitar to the closet because you don't know how to proceed and don't want to spend the money for a set up at the shop. But if you follow my suggestions, you'll either get it right where it needs to be or else close enough that all the repair tech would need to do is dial in the precise intonation for you, which is likely to cost a lot less than the entire task would.

Hope this helps, and don't even think about abandoning the guitar at this point!!


Wade Hampton Miller

Wade, Thanks for taking the time to help! MT

Well done Wade !

Great work - the time taken to help others by sharing useful knowledge is what this forum is all about!
Im sure it will help too!

regards
Mike

For those who haven't explored one of these up close and personal, a bit of an explanation:
On these guitars the trapeze part and the part bolted to the guitar can be separated. What looks in the photo like a closed tube on the tailpice section actually has an open underside. It looks like a question mark if viewed from the side. So the narrow end of the trapeze can be hooked in or taken out of the fixed part of the assembly, and releasing all string tension will allow it to fall out. I was surprised, too, the first time I de-strung mine.

Okay, that makes more sense now. Even so, it's still easily re-assembled.

So, Shadowraptor, have you sat down and looked at the parts to see how to put them back in place, or are you seriously going consign a new guitar to the closet because you're angry that it came apart when the string tension was released?


whm

Thank you so much Wade - you have made my day.

Also note that because the bridge is adjustable, the top piece is not physically attached to the base - don't lose it!

PS - yes I have fiddled around with the parts. Other than determining where the bridge goes (thanks again Wade), the only other problem is my thumbs! You gotta keep tension on the string at the tuner in in order to hold the tailpiece in place, at the same time trying to keep the bridge somwhere on the top and holding the nut in position. If you put on a lower string first, it pulls the nut in that direction. Then the string you're holding cuts you finger and it starts to bleed. You yell some profanity, than decide to get a bandaid. You put the guitar down and everything falls off again.

But I digress - L&M have offered me a free setup :)

Put the low and high E strings on but don't tune them to full pitch. They should hold the bridge together and keep it more or less in place. With those strings on, locate the bridge to where it should be. You can then put on the remaining strings. Be careful that the bridge is centered so that both E strings are about the same distance from their respective edges of the fingerboard. Uneven string tension as you add strings can pull the bridge laterally. You may have to tune up to pitch, check intonation as Wade suggested, determine whether the bridge is located correctly, lower pitch enough that you can move the bridge fore or aft as needed to correct pitch (toward the nut if the fretted note is lower than the harmonic; reverse if it's higher), tune back to pitch to recheck intonation, and repeat as needed until the intonation is about as good as it can be. I have a replacement bridge on mine and I actually have to have one end of the bridge just a whisper forward of the other to get things optimized.

Once it's all good, give it some time to settle and then recheck it periodically. Temperature and humidity can induce small changes but if it's consistently fretting sharp or flat after it has settled in, you might want to readjust a small amount.

Perfection is probasbly not going to br attainable but you should be able to get quite close, and certainly close enough so that it won't sound blatently out of tune.

The good news regarding those thumb-wheel bridges is that you can adjust the action. You may want it pretty much as low is it can be without the strings buzzing against the frets when you play vigorously. Some people like it a bit higher than that.

The bad news is that if you substantially change the saddle height, you'll probably have to touch up the intonation again.

Just think of these adjustments as another fun aspect of the guitar. You won't do any structural damage if you're a bit off. you can always bring it to a pro if you want it done really well. But with a bit of practice, you'll get better at it and that's a source of satisfaction in its own right.

Those of us who have spent much time with mandolins (that includes Wade and me) have gotten pretty used to this drill. You will too.

Roger that. One more thing to add - Rob, don't feel any shame at using low tack masking tape or Scotch Magic tape to hold things together as you reassemble the guitar. It'll hold the pieces where they need to stay long enough for you to secure that part and move on to the next.

Just be glad that with your archtop guitar you aren't stuck with having to use loop end strings, as mandolin players like Bob and I have to deal with. I also use tape to hold the loop end of the mandolin string to the tailpiece while I'm attaching the other end to the tuner shaft. Those loops have an annoying tendency to pop loose as you start to bring the string up to tension, as well, so a little piece of tape can be a godsend there, as well.

I use loop end strings on the various banjos I own, as well, but am very fortunate that the guy who built my first mountain dulcimer built it for ball end strings instead of the loop end strings that are much more common on dulcimers. I've ordered all my mountain dulcimers that way ever since.

Anyway, getting used to a movable bridge instrument is no big deal, there's just a slightly different skill set you need to acquire.

Have fun!


Wade Hampton "I LOATHE Loop End Strings!" Miller

I love this place :)

I've got a new set of strings and I am going to put her back together tomorrow using the excellent advice I have received here. I'll let you folks how it works out.

Many thanks!

One little trick when placing the bridge initially is to align it to the centre (or points) of the F-foles. Most violin family instruments are set up like this. It's a rough guide. Then the fine tuning with the bridge placement can begin. Once you get it right, you'll never be afraid to do it again.

When I change strings on an instrument, I like to take them all off, it allows me to look closely at the fingerboard and top of the instrument and give them a good cleaning.

All the best. Play much and prosper!

Hi Rob:

I use a little piece of white "medical tape" on each end of the bridge so it does not fall off when restringing.

Taylorplayer

A couple of other things.

The advice to start with the bridge near the center of the F holes is a good starting point.

The bridge is in the right place when the 12th fret harmonic matches the 12th fretted note. When you get everything back together, check it. If the fretted note is sharp, loosen the strings a bit and drive the bridge backwards a small bit, toward the tailpiece. If it's flat, drive forward towards the neck. Since the saddle is compensated, if you can get the two E's good, usually everything else will be cool as well. An important thing to note is sometimes the bridge will not be perfectly perpendicular to the strings to be intonated properly.

You can change the strings two at a time in the future and it will keep enough pressure to hold things in place.

You can mark the top with a pencil right under the bridge, if you want, in case something falls off in the future. If you change string gauge ever, the bridge might end up in a different location--remember that.

Now get that guitar out of the closet!--the 5th avenue is a fine instrument (and I can't figure out why people still fool around with Ibanez's and Epiphones with these beauties and their electric kingpin cousins out there) and keeping these guidlines in mind should get you years of joy out of her.