Is it a nut problem?
 

Hello!

I bought a used Ibanez Talman acoustic as a back-up guitar.

Nice fit and finish for a fairly cheap instrument. However, getting the thing in tune has been a problem. It goes along okay, tuning by harmonics but but then the octaves (e.g. A string third fret and B string first fret) are not in tune. I fiddle around try to compensate--this string a little flat, this one a little sharp. Certain chords play in tune, others not.

But when I capo at the first fret, tuning problems disappear. She tunes up fine, plays nice.

I've owned some inexpensive guitars in my time but have never had this experience.

Do I need a "zero" fret? Do I need to shave the nut-end of the fret board and move the nut closer?

All help appreciated, thank you!

Steve

How deep are the nut slots? Are they so deep, the entire string is buried in the slot? Also, is the nut plastic? If so, you're probably getting some sticking going on where the nut keeps the string in place and puts it in a bind. In theory, half the string is supposed to be down in the nut slots. More often than not, they end up sitting all the way down in them.

Remedy: file the top of the nut so the strings aren't buried, and use a lubricant in the nut slots. Or, try a Graphtech Tusq nut. They are self-lubricating and typically don't make the strings "stick".

Best of luck.

This is NOT on the right track. Seriously.

If the nut slots are not cut deep enough, then the string needs to be stretched (just like string bending) and will be sharp. It will be sharper the lower the fretted note. So, if your intonation is good mid-neck and upward, but poorer the closer you go to the nut, it is likely the nut slots have not yet been cut deep enough.

It COULD be that the nut is installed in the wrong location. But this is rare. (Possible, yes, but still rare...)

To comment on the first reply...

It doesn't really matter how tall the nut is, as long as the BOTTOM OF THE SLOTS ARE THE CORRECT HEIGHT, AND THE SLOTS ARE WIDE ENOUGH. It is MOSTLY aesthetic to have nuts either level with the top of the strings, or have about 1/3rd of the string diameter projecting from the top of the nut.

Hope this helps.

Worth repeating. :)

Also worth noting, I've seen nuts where the attempt was made to get the right visual and slots were so shallow that the unwound strings wouldn't stay put.

Getting a nut right seems to be the last frontier in guitar setup. It's fairly simple geometry, but there are so many myths running rampant that it's hard to cut through the clutter.

I didn't mean that nut height/depth slots has nothing to do with the problem, I was just saying that sometimes strings stick in deep nut slots, and can cause tuning issues. It is clear the OP's issue is from the nut slots being the wrong height relative to the first fret. I was cautioning about getting the slots too deep is all. Also, I have seen plain strings try to wander and should've said it's ok for them to ride deeper in the slot.

Again, depth of the slot has little to do with nut function. As long as the nuts ARE deep enough so that the strings don't jump out of the nut slots (we could call them grooves if they are too shallow), then the important thing is that the slots are cut to the correct depth AND width.

Whether a nut slot is as deep as the string diameter, or 3x the string diameter, it will pinch if it is too narrow, and it will function properly if it is the correct width.

Your point "sometimes strings stick in deep nut slots" has nothing to do with their depth. Rather, those deep nut slots in which strings stick have not been cut wide enough. Not related to their depth. But I think I've repeated that a few times already... ;-)

Todd adds this and it's always my suggestion for any newly purchased guitar and certainly one with tuning, intonation or buzzing issues. Get a proper tune up so you don't have to wonder what, if anything, is off.

How's the action on this guitar? From what you are saying I would think the action is high around the first several frets. It sounds like when you fret the guitar, because of the distance of the action, it plays out of tune. If that is the case then the nut slots are to high and would need lowered so that the strings don't have to move so far to be fretted. I've have learned how to do this and would not suggest trying to do this yourself.

If the nut slots are too wide, can this cause the problem? If the string is actually making contact with the nut a little north of the face of the nut, then the intonation will be wrong when it is open, but be fine when it is capoed. Roger Siminoff talks about this in his book and shows a picture of a nut that has had this done intentionally.

Ed

Bingo. The string should stop at the face of the nut, not somewhere on the nut itself. If the slot is too wide and/or not angled on the bottom, the string can vibrate in the nut, lengthening the distance from the nut to the first fret. The symptom is sharp intonation when fretting the first fret.
Strings too high at the nut is the other likely possibility. Check the nut height by gently pressing the string onto the second fret (press between the second and third frets), and look for minimal clearance over the first fret.

Thanks, John. Good practical advice, though a bit outside my repair skill level. I'd shaved the saddle because the action was too high and i think probably should have addressed the nut first. Time to take it to an expert...

The strings are not quite flush with the top of the nut but I think at this point I am going to take it to a pro. Thank you for your response.