Blindfold Test
 

In the new Premiere Guitar Magazine Bob Taylor has a column where he talks about guitar woods. He makes an analogy to an episode of Hell's Kitchen cooking show where Gordon Ramsey blindfolds aspiring chefs to prove they don't really know their ingredients as well as they think. One chef who claims to love black truffles finds them disgusting with a blindfold on. He claims the same is probably true with guitar woods and many would be fooled (though he claims Leo Kottke can identify the species of mahogany-not just the wood itself :D) He says 95% of the sound is the makers techniques of construction which is why a Taylor sounds like a Taylor and a Martin sounds like a Martin despite all the various tonewoods.

I realize this is an earth shattering relevation and many will die disputing it-but it rings a little true to me at least. I know your D-18 is different than my D-28 but they do sound like Martins and my Larrivee 0M-03 (Sapele) sounds eerily close to my friends 0M-03R with Rosewood..

Stand back....:eek:

Mike:guitar:

Didn't someone build a guitar out of paper mache (sitka top) to prove that it is the top that provides the sound?

I don't want to sound dismissive, but all Taylor guitars sound pretty much the same to me, regardless of tonewood. I'm sure i couldn't distinguish them in a blindfold test.

-Bob

I have what are basically identical Martin dreads - same Adi tops, same bracing (wood, size, placement), same Ebony bridge and fingerboard, both have bone nut/saddle/pins.

One is Mahogany and one Madagascar, if you can't tell the difference "live" take up the Kazoo!

And I have tried blind A/B's with friends who are experienced players listening from another room, after going back and forth a few times they can tell Hog from Rosewood without too much difficulty.

I do not think it is hard to tell a D-18 from a D-28, maybe not from compressed MP3's but "live" I will take that bet and take your money.

If someone said Brazilian from EIR or Madagascar I would not take the bet, but Mahogany from Rosewood...........big difference, and I would caveat that with using Martins as that is what I am familiar with and my ears recognize.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

I completely agree with Bob Taylor. It is not that the tonewoods don't make a difference, but there are so many variables and the tonewood is just one component. Personally I think what the luthier does with the top (Stiffness, bracing etc) has the greatest impact on tone. All the other variables contribute as well.

Bob's pallet guitar is a great example of how construction has a major impact

Have you actually DONE this? Blindfolded?

BTW, I don't just mean tell that two guitars are different. I mean identify woods after playing the guitars (previously unplayed by you) blindfolded.

I'm not entirely convinced that's true. Otherwise why not make a guitar from Oak or Poplar both of which are cheaper then making Ovankol and Sapele laminates and are both decent for bending (though I suspect Taylor has a lot of Sapele and Ovankol scrapwood around for making laminates ;) ) they could corner the low end market with solid wood guitars that sound like a rosewood guitar if the theory is correct. (Make a $300 Taylor guitar out of Oak that sounds like rosewood and I'd buy it! :D:D:D )

I read a few years back that a graduate student at UCLA did a test of the resonance with flutes of different materials (various woods, metal, polymer plastic and glass). They found no discernible difference in the sound each produced. I believe the result there was that what little variation in sound produced on each was more attributable to inconsistencies in the bore smoothness then in the materials themselves. (Maker vs material basically)

That being said, in the flute world after that study was published, many players still swear by blackwood and say boxwood has a smoother, buttery sound. I have a boxwood flute and a polymer flute and they sound different but they are from different makers so how much is attributable to the maker and how much to the material... no idea. I like them both.

I'd suspect that guitars are similar but the resonance area of a guitar is larger so maybe the resonance differences are more pronounced and some folks can pick that up? I mean a Martin D-18 (Mahogany) and a Martin D-28 (Rosewood) use the same top, bracing, and coatings and no one would say that they sound the same. the only difference between them is the perfling on the back of the D-28, the edge binding and the fingerboards and bridges (Rosewood D-18, Ebony D-28) Maybe the weight difference of the bridge causes a slight alteration of the sound but I'm not sure if that would cause the difference...

Just wondering out loud :)

-Jim

Lots of good responses!
Again- while I agree that your D-18 sounds different than my D-28 and it should because mahogany and rosewood have different tonal ranges- I think what Bob Taylor is getting at is that they still sound like Martins. Yes- of course each brand has many different models that aim at different tastes in tone- but yet they evoke a certain familiar brand sound mainly due to construction. But I think even more what he's saying is that most people would get lost with a blindfold between Mahogany, Maple, Rosewood, Cocobolo, etc...

I have 6 acoustics and have been playing over 30 years. I totally hear the difference between my rosewood Martin and my mahogany Guild - yet the guy I play with in a duo has both a rosewood and maple Guild and they all have a Guild sound... or do they? Maybe it's knowing that leads or ears. I'm not sure it would be the same blindfolded.

Mike:guitar:

I think I might try that for my next purchace!!!! Just walk into GC (or some such) blindfolded, with my wife leading me by the hand (and cussing the whole time 'cause I'm buying ANOTHER guitar), and just sit down and play everything they've got..............I'm quite sure I would be surprised by my choice!:D:D:D:D


Interesting....................................... ......





Now, where's my blindfold?

I would say design and positioning of the bracing will have a far greater impact on sound than body wood. Triangular rather than scallop bracing - number and positioning of tone bars and so on.

The bridge also will have a large part in shaping sound. If you ever had a bridge that was lifting off and then reattached you will know what I mean.

I think you are being the opposite of dismissive. Your observations support Taylor's position.

Playing blindfolded is not what I said, nor playing unfamiliar guitars.

I should clarify, a "blind" A/B test doesn't mean literally blindfolded, it mean the "subject" doesn't know if they are hearing A or B, a double blind test means the tester and the subject don't know whether it's A or B. Common in home theater and high end audio (I've hosted a few) but harder to do with instruments.

In audio, say you're double blind testing speakers, the source must be the same, easy you use recorded music, and the volume must be the same adjusted with an SPL to alllow for speaker differences. 2db is audible and we subliminally prefer the louder sound and sense it as better. You can double blind by using a switch box so the tester doesn't know which speakers they are turning on and the listener cannot be allowed to see the speakers, that's double blind.

It is impossible for anyone to play the same piece exactly identical and exactly at the same volume, so that is a drawback. Recording the guitars and adjusting for SPL during playback would actually be a better way to test if you have high end microphones and speakers.

What I have done. First the best place to "hear" a guitar is out front, not playing it. What I have done is have friends play a hog and rosewood guitar in my office/studio, while I listen from the next room, two doors are open so the sound is pretty good. It's really not hard to tell my GE from the America's Guitar, and they can do it too. The same would apply to a D-18 and D-28 I'm sure.

I am not saying someone can play a Somogyi in another room and I can tell you what woods it's made of, I can't. I'm saying I can tell Martin hogs from rosewood and I better be able to because that is how I built my collection with pairs of hog/rosewood models, if they aren't difference I've wasted a LOT of money.

This may be off tangent from the original post.

Quote "He says 95% of the sound is the makers techniques of construction which is why a Taylor sounds like a Taylor and a Martin sounds like a Martin despite all the various tonewoods."

I do not disagree with that statement. Sorry for the long post.

Maybe when people say they can tell the difference, what they are really saying is that relative to each other on the same day, in the same place under the same conditions with all else being equal, there is a difference and that difference is attributed to the wood? It might be more of a relative difference then a specific difference?

Now if you walk into a place where the environment is different (humidity levels and temperature mainly but also acoustics of the room) you may not be able to tell your own rosewood guitar from a similarly built mahogany but you can tell that there is a difference relative to each other even if you can't quite tell which is which. The fact that there is a difference, tells me that the wood type is making some small alteration to the sound. I suspect that people with really good hearing can pick that up and maybe tell what type of wood a guitar is made out of, wish my hearing was that good ;)

A good test to me wouldn't be to tell which is rosewood and which is mahogany (or sepele, ovankol, maple, etc) but have each played multiple times and see if you can pick out the same one each time relative to the others played. To really verify it, play multiple guitars of the same build with different woods if possible and have at least two of them the exact same wood (say mahogany). If someone can pick out the mahogany guitars 90% of the time, I'd say there was a difference that they can hear even if they couldn't tell you the the one they were hearing was mahogany.

Just a thought for a different way to test... your mileage may vary ;)
-Jim

Jim,

I agree, the difference is "relative".

It's much easier to hear two guitars, one rosewood and one mahogany, and pick out which is which, than having somone just play one of the guitars and say which wood it was. It's the differences, the contrasts that provides the clues.

Maybe I can get my buds at GC to do a test sometime when they have two identical guitars and a third of another wood. Problem is Mahogany is getting scarse, hardly ever see D-18's anymore, at least at my store, and the only D-18GE they ever had I bought! We'll see, I like your idea of two of the same in the mix.