K&K Superglue alternatives?
 

Has anyone tried using a less permanent adhesive with the K&K Mini? I mean, superglue, really? What a terrible idea. Seems like the tape used on a Trance would work just fine?

The superglue will give you the absolute best possible sound with the K&K . . . period. If you ever decide to take it out or switch pickups, a good guitar tech can remove the K&K with no damage to your guitar (other than maybe some discoloration of your bridgeplate - which no one sees anyway).

Why wouldn't epoxy work? That's what is holding my Dazzos in place. There is epoxy remover and it gets the bridge plate clean without very much hassle.

I'm trying to stay out of this....trying to stay out of this...trying....
Okay, I give in.....Come on, after all this time, no good alternative to Superglue can be found? ....I don't buy it....(I literally don't buy it....)
I have found some other pickup systems that sound way better to me, than the K&K.....And reversing these systems is easy....
Bone

I would think if there was a better alternative to superglue, which would, in theory, make their Pure Mini pickup sound better, K&K Sound would mention it as an option. No?

Gary at Trance tells me that once superglue has been on the bridgeplate, it soaks in, and the Trance tape will no longer adhere properly. This matches my experience when I tried it, after cleaning the bridge thoroughly, and even sanding. The pickups seemed to be well-attached, but sounded razor thin. I also tried using Barge cement over the previously-superglued bridgeplate (that's what Trance used to recommend), and that also failed.

It's not intuitive to me why it didn't work, it sure seems like if the pickup is reasonably attached, it should be ok, picking up vibrations as you'd expect. If I recall, David Enke at PUTW even recommends smearing a little glue over the surface to seal it before sticking his pickups on, to create a smoother surface for adhesion. So it may vary with the pickup. But I certainly have experienced different tones from different tapes on various SBTS I've tried, so I have no doubt the adhesive matters, and apparently the surfaces matter as well.

K&K's sound quite good, and my experience with using tape with them was not great - they needed to be glued in to sound right. So if that's what someone wants to install, I think its a very safe bet, but people should realize it's a pretty invasive option. My experience, combined with the availability of other pickups that also sound good, has me leaning away from ever supergluing anything to my guitars again, but that's just my current bias.

I can't speak to the use of alternate adhesives, but I can say once the elements are superglued in, they are almost impossible to remove cleanly without damaging them. I was chatting with one of the best repairmen in the DC area yesterday and he concurred. Perhaps padding a few coats of shellac on the underside of the bridge plate. As previously noted, this might impede the penetration of the superglue enough to not prevent proper installation of future transducers.

I wonder whether anyone has tried 3M transfer tape, the adhesive commonly used to attach pickguards. Its adhesion is well tested, it's essentially a film of glue between two peel off layers with no foam, its wafer thin and might do the trick. To be determined.....

Could this 3M tape be the mysterious Trance tape?

Before I glued my Dazzos in with epoxy I tested it out on a 2x4. I know it wasn't spruce but might be more porous than spruce. I let it dry, I rubbed a little epoxy remover on it after 15 minutes I started scraping with a razor blade. It scraped off rather easy. There is barely a visible sign that the epoxy was ever there. My Dazzos had to be removed for better positioning and they were successfully replied. Why can't that work on KandKs? To this day there was no wood harmed by the usage of epoxy. The 2x4 is still 100%.

I know these guys who build these pickups must have tested everything under the sun. They no doubt recommend what they think works best.

From what I understand, the reasoning behind Trance installations not sounding good after superglue has been previously applied to a soundboard for a previous installation is that dried-into-the-woodgrain superglue affects optimal vibrational transfer to the Amulets. Trance also recommends not installing a UST along with a Trance system because the UST also negatively affects vibrational transfer to the Amulets. Gary Hull has mentioned that Trance Amulets sense vibrations in many planes, more than three, and this may be why they work best on uncompromised bridge-plates? I would also think that if enough wood can be removed from a bridge-plate by flat-sanding, a Trance Amulet system would work properly but then you're faced with the decision of how much wood is enough to remove and do I want to alter my bridge-plate?

^^^
1. Superglue (cyanoacrylate adhesive) has advantages when you want a minimal amount of glue and a quick set.
It has very little impact resistance, and no resistance against continuous water exposure, but, it does have a million and one good uses.

It isn't the best thing to use on wood, for the reasons of the wicking problem described above, and also because wood is an acidic substrate that isn't the best substrate for superglue's best performance. Superglues were originally designed for metal bonding.

2. Creating a cured glue base to try again is a good idea and is not an uncommon solution.

3. less is more, when it comes to superglue. big mistake is to apply too much, which interferes with getting a full cure on the bond area.

4. as for superglue (CA) versus epoxy, I asked my chemist what he thinks about removing cured adhesive from wood, and would one be better than another> he said: if removing excess adhesive, than CA woudl be easier because you can just put a wet cloth (hot soapy water) on the CA. The CA will let go without any damage to teh wood. if you trying to debond 2 bonded substrates then it will be difficult with to do with either one chemistry without damage.

I missed something in number 4 above. I am not following the explanation. Aren't they both cured adhesives? I am not getting which one is easier.

Hi Vancebo,

excess adhesive is sometimes referred to as sqeezeout, and is the glue that isn't where it is supposed to be.,

in this instance, the removal of superglue is easy and less likely to damage the wood.

when the adhesive has bonded two parts (substrates) together, that is where the increased risk of damage comes in. there will be glue that wicked into both wooden parts, as well as glue in the gap (however minimal) between the two parts.

hope that helps.

added note: a tiny bit of superglue is often all you need to to the job. tiny as in one little drop like a baby's tear or smaller. Not a big glop.

I had a conversation with Dieter at K&K, as well as with a technical support person at 3M. The folks at 3M, said in response to my question about transfer adhesives that would cure hard, said that none of them cure hard. Part of the problem is that the very nature of the materials you're trying to adhere, they both have extremely different expansion and contraction rates, consequently you want adhesieve that is more flexible. Clearly CA is not flexible.

The two tapes he recommended, both were 2 mils thick, one of which was the one that Dieter is already using.