I gave up Taylor guitars because I didn't like their pickup system
 

Don't get me wrong, I love Taylors, I think in many ways they are the nicest guitars on the planet for a few reasons. I even like how the vaunted Expression system sounds - but not when I play single note lead guitar. Pickup sounds great on strumming, finger style - but when I play single note lead with a flat pick I think they sound awful - and I don't have this issue with any of the several third party setups from companies like Baggs and Fishman on my other guitars.

I tried a bunch of things, pedals, etc. to fatten up that tone to no avail. Very happy with the tone from the other guitars I own with third party pickups and with a Martin I got last year with an OEM pickup (I think it's a Fishman), OM-35C I got in April of last year. The odd thing is that Taylor was a Limited Edition from a few years ago with Ebony back and sides, acoustically it was about the best sounding guitar I ever played. But I do play amplified quite a bit and I play a fair bit of lead, so I wound up trading the guitar in on something else.

It's killing me. Either I'm nuts (very likely) and this is just my tin ear, or maybe there are others out there who share that perception. And are there third party guys tweaking the Expression system somehow to address this?

I think it was Expression 2, the guitar was made in 2014? Whatever year they did those Ebony Ltd Editions. 816 style. Killer guitar.

Just curious. I do love Taylors and I'd buy another if I could figure this one out. Any input appreciated. This is no knock on the brand, I really love their guitars. I'm a huge Taylor fan. The other day I'm thinking I should put this question here and see what I can find out.

It might be helpful if you posted a video or example of what you're hearing. After spending a lot of time and money on guitars, before solving my hearing issues, I've learned from experience. Otherwise, it just might be that you don't like their system. Or, maybe consider a different flatpick for use with a pickup. I do that. I use a rounder (warmer) pick when I'm playing plugged in. I use my heavier bluechip pick when I'm playing with bluegrass people.

Why not order one without electronics?

The only fairly recent Taylor Limited Edition with Ebony back and sides is the Spring 2013 Taylor Limited Edition Ebony 600 Series in 614ce-LTD/616ce-LTD with European Spruce top. It has the Expression System 1.3 (ES1.3) magnetic-based pickup system which is the last version of the Expression System 1 (ES1). It's not the new ES2, which is piezo-based with the three sensors visible behind the bridge saddle.

You say you tried various pedals to get a fatter tone for lead. I always thought the ES1 had a rather fat and rounded tone so I'm not sure why you'd have wanted to try to fatten it up more. Did you try a Volume pedal or a pedal with Compression/EQ/Boost in your signal chain for when it was time to play a lead line in a song? The pedal could've been EQ'ed with a bit more treble, and maybe midrange, too, so when it was engaged, along with the slight volume boost and compression, your solos would've stood out more without having to have beat on the guitar.

I have a Taylor with the old Fishman Prefix system, dreaded barn door and all, and I think it's tremendous. I've played Expression equipped Taylors, and I don't get it.

I have probably tried 50 of these ES 2 equipped Taylors. They do suffer a bit from inconsistency issues. Some of them were awesome set flat. Some had a metallic sound that was irritating. Others suffered from the hollow tubby sound. It's best to try before you buy. Mostly I like them very much. Never pulled the trigger though. If I had $3k sitting around, I would like an 810 but I wouldn't do the ES2 because of so many aftermarket options that would do the same thing.

I totally agree with you about the Taylor ES1.3

You have two options:
* Get a new pickup (like the Trance Audio Amulet... )
* Retrofit the knobs:
http://shawwoodshop.com/products/exp...oustic-guitars

http://nebula.wsimg.com/obj/Qjg0REQ1...EzMGU6Ojo6OjA=

If your good at soldering, you can also make yourself replacement knobs that would work with your new pickup (The ES pots seem to be pretty standards).

* upgrade to ES2 for 300$
https://www.taylorguitars.com/support/service-packages

I did not choose yet. I think I will eventually sell my Taylor for the same reason.

Cuki

Mi-Si sells an endpin preamp that works with USTs and allows you to reuse the knobs.


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I don't mind the sound of the ES2 but the original ES was pretty terrible. Single notes sounded like I was playing a hollow bodied electric. I will agree though that one of the reasons why I don't purchase Taylor guitars is because of their pickups. I just don't want visible holes on my guitar and unfortunately that's what Taylor offers. Yeah, you can order one without but that takes away any chances of finding a good used price.

I cut out a little bit of your original post but I wanted to ask you a very specific question. I think your system is the 1.3 version. If you do not have little screws in the bridge then you have the 1.3. If you do then its ES2. Now I am going with the 1.3 system and that being said.... have you tried a balanced cable? TRS on one end...guitar side..... XLR male on the other into a amp or mixer? Second solution is a chorus pedal and the other item I would include would be the MXR 108 EQ pedal. I have the ES 1.2 and found those two items did the trick for me. I use a Pigtronix Keymaster interface pedal for the effects loop to keep the impedance issues in check. I have tried the ES2 system and if I ordered a new Taylor, I would still go for the ES 1.3 system. Understand, I play in a group that plays country, rock (Elvis to modern pop) and a little jazz. The Taylor just fits the bill.

It sounds great until you start playing single note lead lines and then it sounds pretty awful. At least to me. Go figure. I guess eventually I may buy another Taylor and if I don't like it change the pickup. Wondering if there's a guy out there who will go in and modify their pickup to address this issue.

If anyone out there even thinks there IS an issue.

Thanks for the responses so far.

I will say that the Taylor T5z I had for a while was one of the best playing guitars I have ever owned. The ES2, which I had had very high hopes for, left me cold.

Try running it through a Sarno Steel Guitar Black Box.

I don't think anyone has mentioned string type. That can make a big difference too if you're wanting to shape tone.

The problem of single notes leads comes from the fact that the magnetic pickup is burried under the fretboard.

So when you play each note gets EQued by a comb filter such as thoses

http://www.till.com/articles/PickupMixing/images/b.gif

There is a very nice explanation here
http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/
and simulator here
http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/

If you are not convinced, record your Taylor with an external mic and apply a very-short delay with the mix button to 50% signal 50% delayed signal. You'll get that Jazzy hollowbody sound.

So when you play single notes on a Taylor ES1, what you miss are the harmonics. All the high frequency content of your playing falls into the holes of the combs, making your sound sterile.

The only way to bring back harmonics is to use some kind of soft distortion. I liked the Aphex Xciter (1401). Don't know why I sold it... That was dum.

Every time, you play lead, put the soft distortion on. But then you need a beackout-box to accomodate with the TRS cable and the distortion box... I think a lot of us went through there.

Cuki