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-   -   CAGED vs 3-Note / 5-Fret Scale Patterns? (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=483128)

ChrisN 09-16-2017 09:22 AM

CAGED vs 3-Note / 5-Fret Scale Patterns?
 
I'm early in my self-guided learning (practical application and theory). I'm at the point where I'm learning the major scales and can play them wherever I find the root, using patterns/forms/shapes that appear to conform to the CAGED system, though I didn't knowingly use that method to learn this - it just seemed to make sense, and the notes were all fairly close together, so not much stretching.

Then I watched this video on scale stuff:



I quickly saw he ran scales completely differently - instead of spanning no more than 4 frets and crossing the board, as I was, he covered 5 frets to usually get 3 notes per string, ending up finishing his scale by the the D string, to my G. See the video at 10:15 where he demonstrates the G major chord. He did not offer any explanation for his scale method, and he appeared to have substantial theory education that suggested he wasn't a hack going his own way.

After that video, I did some additional research and learned about the CAGED system (my stumbled-into default). I agreed with what I was reading here: http://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/what-a...tions/#meaning

I also learned that there was an anti-CAGED faction lobbying heavily against CAGED's alleged deficiencies (eg https://tomhess.net/WhyTheCAGEDSyste...arPlaying.aspx )

Apparently, the CAGED system is just for losers who never want to progress in their playing, play with emotion, speed, use the entire fretboard, or basically enjoy the pasttime in the manner I desire. If you're content to play within a small box from which you can never escape, CAGED is for you, but if you want to play free, then 5-frets-or-3-notes-per-string (or whatever that system is called) is for you.

GAACK! I can't handle a lot of schools of thought on this, I'm barely handling one - I need to learn one way for the limited lifetime I have left, I want to do it right, not have to unlearn mistaken ways of learning, I need to play with emotion, outside the box, soloing like a free spirit whose fingers barely touch the fretboard in their pursuit of frenzied perfection. Also, and significantly, my stubby fingers are definitely more comfortable reaching for CAGED-based scale notes.

I ran into a discussion of this issue that suggested the 5-fret system was mostly about speed, for shredders. I play acoustic/electric equally, but don't desire to shred, ever, so it's not about speed for me. I just don't want to be held back by what some suggest is a short-cut way to inferior learning - I want to learn it correctly the first time, even if it's not easy.

While I appreciate I should have formal instruction, I want to get these basics under my belt, first. I'd appreciate any input on the best/better method to approach learning the fretboard and scales for lifelong satisfaction. Thanks

TBman 09-16-2017 09:28 AM

Real music.

Any scale system is useless if you don't play music. Caged vs non-caged? A waste of time. Just make music.


rick-slo 09-16-2017 10:15 AM

Different scale pattern options are available, perhaps preferable, depending on what you are doing during playing scales. Are you just playing single notes most or all of the time? Are you playing harmony and/or a baseline underneath the scale notes? Are your scales extending beyond an octave or two?

SunnyDee 09-16-2017 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisN (Post 5478045)
I'm early in my self-guided learning (practical application and theory). I'm at the point where I'm learning the major scales and can play them wherever I find the root, using patterns/forms/shapes that appear to conform to the CAGED system, though I didn't knowingly use that method to learn this - it just seemed to make sense, and the notes were all fairly close together, so not much stretching.
...
I ran into a discussion of this issue that suggested the 6-fret system was mostly about speed, for shredders. I play acoustic/electric equally, but don't desire to shred, ever, so it's not about speed for me. I just don't want to be held back by what some suggest is a short-cut way to inferior learning - I want to learn it correctly the first time, even if it's not easy.

While I appreciate I should have formal instruction, I want to get these basics under my belt, first. I'd appreciate any input on the best/better method to approach learning the fretboard and scales for lifelong satisfaction. Thanks

I'm a late-starting self-taught person, too, so I know what you mean with all the confusing info, so this is just my experience figuring it out for myself. The way I see it, the fretboard is laid out the way it's laid out in whatever tuning you use. For me the goal was to learn that layout, to be able to play a scale/octave/chord/whatever anywhere because I know how the fretboard is laid out and I know how a chord or scale would be created using the intervals in that layout. I play, not by memorizing a different shape for each root note or position but by knowing that, for example, a major scale has this interval pattern and the intervals look like this on the fretboard, so I play those no matter where I am on the neck. If you watched that video, you must already know the intervals for major scales and all that, so it's just about learning where those intervals are when you change strings.

To me, CAGED is a lot of memorized shapes, some not very playable for me, but it seems to be, first, about being able to play that shape quickly (muscle memory) and, then, some people learn where notes or chords are from it. To me, the other systems seem the same, just with different shapes.

If you want to learn shapes so that you can play them without thinking, I suspect it doesn't matter which shapes as you'll only really learn ones that prove useful to you as you play certain types of music anyway. If you want to learn the fretboard and how the intervals in the scales fit on to it, you can do whichever shape system you want for that, too, or you can skip the memorized shapes and learn the board and patterns needed in other ways. So, it's about do you want to train your hands to memorize and quickly play certain useful shapes? Or do you want to know how the patterns work so you can play anywhere, but, possibly, more slowly? I'm sure everyone does both to some degree, but these methods seem to focus more on the first one.

ChrisN 09-16-2017 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo (Post 5478095)
Different scale pattern options are available, perhaps preferable, depending on what you are doing during playing scales. Are you just playing single notes most or all of the time? Are you playing harmony and/or a baseline underneath the scale notes? Are your scales extending beyond an octave or two?

I'm playing single note scales all of the time. Where the fretboard permits, my scales can/do extend an octave across the board. It sounds like you're saying it doesn't matter which of the 2 ways I found to play scales (across the board in a 4-fret range, or extending up the board w/3 notes per string and a 5-fret range. Therefore, contrary to the sources I mentioned, it seems you don't buy into the notion that CAGED is good or bad, or that the 3 note method is superior in some way.

ChrisN 09-16-2017 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunnyDee (Post 5478173)
I'm a late-starting self-taught person, too, so I know what you mean with all the confusing info, so this is just my experience figuring it out for myself. The way I see it, the fretboard is laid out the way it's laid out in whatever tuning you use. For me the goal was to learn that layout, to be able to play a scale/octave/chord/whatever anywhere because I know how the fretboard is laid out and I know how a chord or scale would be created using the intervals in that layout. I play, not by memorizing a different shape for each root note or position but by knowing that, for example, a major scale has this interval pattern and the intervals look like this on the fretboard, so I play those no matter where I am on the neck. If you watched that video, you must already know the intervals for major scales and all that, so it's just about learning where those intervals are when you change strings.

To me, CAGED is a lot of memorized shapes, some not very playable for me, but it seems to be, first, about being able to play that shape quickly (muscle memory) and, then, some people learn where notes or chords are from it. To me, the other systems seem the same, just with different shapes.

If you want to learn shapes so that you can play them without thinking, I suspect it doesn't matter which shapes as you'll only really learn ones that prove useful to you as you play certain types of music anyway. If you want to learn the fretboard and how the intervals in the scales fit on to it, you can do whichever shape system you want for that, too, or you can skip the memorized shapes and learn the board and patterns needed in other ways. So, it's about do you want to train your hands to memorize and quickly play certain useful shapes? Or do you want to know how the patterns work so you can play anywhere, but, possibly, more slowly? I'm sure everyone does both to some degree, but these methods seem to focus more on the first one.

I'm trying to efficiently obtain the fretboard knowledge and music-form familiarity I need to learn to enjoyable and most easily play music. If that's particular shapes, fine. If that's knowing how the shapes work so I can play anywhere, fine. It sounds like you're saying it doesn't matter which of the mentioned methods is used, and it seems rick-slo agrees. That suggests the CAGED v. 5-Fret scale controversy should not be impactful to my progress, which is encouraging.

I found additional information in another thread to which you contributed: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...t=scales+caged

rick-slo 09-16-2017 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisN (Post 5478310)
I'm playing single note scales all of the time. Where the fretboard permits, my scales can/do extend an octave across the board. It sounds like you're saying it doesn't matter which of the 2 ways I found to play scales (across the board in a 4-fret range, or extending up the board w/3 notes per string and a 5-fret range. Therefore, contrary to the sources I mentioned, it seems you don't buy into the notion that CAGED is good or bad, or that the 3 note method is superior in some way.

I did not read your links. Use what you are most comfortable and efficient with for what you are playing. I will use a mix of methods depending on the context - mainly what notes are or are not being played along with the scale, but also tempo, pitches, and scale span involved. I should add that I am picking notes with my fingers, not a flatpick.

Guitar Slim II 09-17-2017 03:52 PM

There certainly are a confusing number of ways to approach positioning and fingering of scales. And unfortunately, there's no "one size fits all." Fingering and position determine where you can put your bends, slides, slurs and ornaments, and that seriously impacts your style. A blues player is likely to play different patterns from a jazz player or from a metal shredder -- even if they're all playing the same scale!

One way to discover what works best for you might be to concentrate on the way it's done in the music you like to play. In other words, you need to look at how your favorite pros use this stuff on real tunes and in real solos. Study some solos by your favorite artists, get the tabs, watch the videos -- I'm sure you've done it before. But now that you're learning theory, you can take what you observe and plug it in to your knowledge of harmony and the fretboard. That, IMO, is how you learn theory, and it how helps you be a better player: observation and practical application.

Also, a note about the so-called CAGED approach. CAGED is nothing more or less than how the guitar works. If you play diatonic music that uses basic major and minor and 7 chords, then you're playing CAGED, there's no way around it. Those who see it as a box or a literal "cage" simply haven't figured out how it applies to inversions, extensions, modes and "in-between" chord voicings. Granted, if you're into non-functional, non-diatonic music, or use jazz chords with alterations and lots tensions, then CAGED isn't a great fit. But that's a critique of the music, not CAGED. CAGED is just how it works for triadic harmonies (major and minor); they cannot be separated. If you don't get that, you don't really get CAGED.

min7b5 09-17-2017 07:22 PM

I personally think knowing a few three-note-per-string, or similar symmetrical layout, is probably a good thing for the occasional quick literal scale run or sequence thing. But on the whole, I think they tend to encourage melodic lines that are (hopefully) unconsciously generated from completing a pattern more than a legitimate melodic thought. Now this is just my own opinion and I'm sure there are many tasteful examples of exceptions... It seems to be popular in the "shred-dude" scene, which puts a premium on guitar feats more than music, and frankly interests me as much as root canals... Moreover, I think having frequent stretches as part of your main approach will probably lead to hand and tendon problems in the long run -especially if you're playing acoustic guitar.

ChrisN 09-17-2017 07:22 PM

I am comforted by the input above re: do what works for the music you want to play, there's no hard/fast way to do this, do what your heroes do, do what works for me, etc. I note I erred when I said the fellow in the video was spanning 6 frets for the first 3 scale notes - it was *only* 5, but as one who spans 5 frets barely and poorly, it's good to know other paths will reach the destination.

My equanimity lasted as long as it took me to watch Guitar Slim II's excellent video on "counterpoint." While I agree with him that it's about the coolest thing you can do with a guitar, this rookie's intimidated, but also excited that such progress is possible.

Thanks to all.

ChrisN 09-17-2017 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by min7b5 (Post 5479543)
I personally think knowing a few three-note-per-string, or similar symmetrical layout, is probably a good thing for the occasional quick literal scale run or sequence thing. But on the whole, I think they tend to encourage melodic lines that are (hopefully) unconsciously generated from completing a pattern more than a legitimate melodic thought. Now this is just my own opinion and I'm sure there are many tasteful examples of exceptions... It seems to be popular in the "shred-dude" scene, which puts a premium on guitar feats more than music, and frankly interests me as much as root canals... Moreover, I think having frequent stretches as part of your main approach will probably lead to hand and tendon problems in the long run -especially if you're playing acoustic guitar.

Thanks Eric - I missed your post while typing my own. I believe your second sentence explains why I never warmed to typical metal shredding - regardless of the player, their work seemed at once too similar, and unimagined, as if they were running through a physical exercise, rather than telling a story. Given the severity of those 5-fret reaches, I don't know how they achieve the speed they do, so kudos to them for that.

I'm a fan of electric guitar playing so I am trying that, in addition to acoustic. One player whose solos I've always admired is Slash (Guns and Roses) who seems to me to play with the "legitimate melodic thought" you describe - I didn't have the words, or comprehend the distinction, before now, so thanks for that.

The stretching thing was giving me "he's no Rachmaninov, pity"-level nightmares.

Guitar Slim II 09-17-2017 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisN (Post 5479544)
I am comforted by the input above re: do what works for the music you want to play, there's no hard/fast way to do this, do what your heroes do, do what works for me, etc. I note I erred when I said the fellow in the video was spanning 6 frets for the first 3 scale notes - it was *only* 5, but as one who spans 5 frets barely and poorly, it's good to know other paths will reach the destination.

Some (certainly not all) rock guitarists tend to lean on single-position 2-octave scales, most of which require a 1-fret stretch out of position in one or both directions. A similar proportion of jazz guitarists use a similar approach -- which is why they're so slick at switching modes without switching position.

Bluesier players tend to like the pentatonic box (mostly in the Em and Am form), But they also like those boxy, slidy, two-fret licks in between. They create scales and modes by adding notes onto the basic pentatonic shape. "In the box" is where the classic licks and bends are, so that's why the blues cats do it that way.

But the "stretch" isn't really that hard. In fact, it doesn't have to be a stretch at all. You can move the hand slightly to reach the out-of-position frets. The teacher might not because he doesn't have to. But you're not holding a chord or a bar or anything else you have to sustain. There's no reason you can't shift the hand a little.

JonPR 09-18-2017 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisN (Post 5478321)
I'm trying to efficiently obtain the fretboard knowledge and music-form familiarity I need to learn to enjoyable and most easily play music. If that's particular shapes, fine. If that's knowing how the shapes work so I can play anywhere, fine. It sounds like you're saying it doesn't matter which of the mentioned methods is used, and it seems rick-slo agrees. That suggests the CAGED v. 5-Fret scale controversy should not be impactful to my progress, which is encouraging.

This is the pattern for the C major scale:

https://musicmotivated.com/wp-conten...otes-chart.jpg
It covers 12 frets, as you can see.

There are various ways of breaking that down into playable "positions", and it really doesn't matter how you do it.
Personally I like CAGED (based on 5 chord shapes), but only because I taught myself the fretboard that way - by playing with capos, and moving chord shapes around, before I knew it was a "system". (And I learned the notes at the same time.)
Making a link with chords is essential (sooner or later), because that's how you improvise intelligently. Note names are slightly less essential (scale degrees and chord tones matter more), but are obviously still useful.

It's simply about mapping the fretboard, to help you get around. What kind of signposts and routes you use is up to you.

frankhond 09-18-2017 05:56 AM

All those different "signposts" have the same goal, to map out the fretboard for you. But they do have different sounds and mechanics. To achieve complete freedom independent of any method takes a long time. In the meantime, yor signposts will help you sound a certain way. Which signposts you use will depend on the music you want to play. A jazz student might study drop-2 chords on different stringsets. An acoustic folk/pop player might start with caged. A shredder might need to learn certain 3 notes per string patterns which minimize string skipping and allows consistent alternate picking at all times. An electric blues player might start with pentatonic blues boxes. Later, you combine these and discover they are all the same. A life long journey.

I suggest to start with a song you know and like. Try to analyze it with some of those signposts. Which one fits best? If caged fits the songs you play, use it to understand the chords. Then find the scale tones in between. If there is a solo, which scale system fits best? How does it interact with the chord shapes? Start with the music, then find the tools. Ignore internet discussions about A is better than B.

Personally, I started with caged and expanded to drop-2 chords. I don't use linear scale playing much so that is on the backburner for now.

Howard Klepper 09-18-2017 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisN (Post 5478045)
, I need to play with emotion, outside the box, soloing like a free spirit whose fingers barely touch the fretboard in their pursuit of frenzied perfection.

Other than this, what kind of music do you want to play?


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