Martin Guitars - Select Hardwoods?
 

I read somewhere that newer C.F. Martin guitars use select hardwoods instead of the traditional mahogany that has been used since the beginning. I am looking for a good to mint condition D18 or D28, but want an original.....not something that uses less than the older guitars. Anyone have any info on when this practice started and what wood or materials are used today. Link to stories is appreciated.

~Raine~

does "select" hardwood imply inferior hardwood? i would think the opposite. sounds like select rosewood or mahogany might be step up, no?

It often seems to be Spanish Cedar. I've been reading guitar history and learned that Spanish Cedar has been used a long time.

Running out of resources has created a scenario where the way some products have been made for a long time has changed. Many want their Martins to be from 1947 or like that.

I noticed that PRS uses wings on their head stocks but haven't seen the same whining on the PRS forum that takes place on the Martin forum.

There are lots of great used Martins that won't have wings and/or Spanish Cedar, but lots of great new ones that might be as good as they've every been when you consider the nut, saddle and manufacturing standards.

I am in the camp where I have more respect for a guitar company trying to minimize both environmental and product costs so these changes do not bother me, but I'll admit that my once piece necks made of mahogany are pretty. OTOH I forgot about the wings on my PRS pretty quickly.

"select hardwood" is Spanish cedar and is being used on more Martins as mahogany is becoming scarcer. I believe it was used on some of the really prized old prewar Marties and gets discussed a lot at UMGF

http://p072.ezboard.com/ftheunoffici...picID=50.topic

The way Martin cuts a complete neck out of one piece of wood is fairly wasteful - you are going to see more wings and laminated necks as other manufacturers are doing (again, in the 20's and 30's some Martins had a separate piece for the headstock - that is the origin of the volute).

As far as I know the "Golden Era" guitars are still being built without wings and with a Mahogony neck. At least mine was, it is a 2006 model. I emailed Martin to see what my neck material was since it was listed as "select hardwood" and when I talked to them in mid 07 they told me the GE series is all Mahogony neck. If you are serious about it I would email martin they are very helpful.

My 00-18V has no wings and a solid mahogany neck and it's serial number is well past the start of the winged era.

Again, wings don't stop my PRS from being super easy to play and sounding good, and I've played some superb Martins with the Spanish Cedar necks and wings.

Martin, Taylor, Fender, Gibson and PRS all have quite the name, but I've found Martin to be surprisingly not full of themselves when I've contacted them for support compared to some companies so I'd second the statement that they are helpful.

My 2007 HD-28V has wings and it's still perfect to me and holds it's own quite well against my one piece mahogany neck D-18GE.

While solid is preferable it has no effect on the sound and with wood shortages wings are becoming a necessity for Martin or they go to multi-piece necks.

Select Hardwood necks should not be a deal breaker, play and listen to the guitar, therein lies the answer.....................

what is this wings thing that you speak about ??????????????

Two small pieces of wood glued to both edges of the headstock to make up the width required.

No information on CITES possabilities, but Martin's wood buyer often posts over at the UMGF and they are having a lot of difficulty getting Mahogany in the right size to make a one-piece neck. Other supplies vary a lot too (remember that Martin is building over 60,000 guitars a year.)

According to a recent post, woods that are being used for necks are:

Bigleaf Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) with and without wings
Spanish cedar with and without wings
Sapele with and without wings
Aftican Mahogany with and without wings
Nato (Nyatoh) 3 piece necks with scarf joint headstock and glued on heel (Used for the Road Series guitars only)
Maple (occasionally, with or without wings)
Cherry (sustainable Cherry is used for some models)

The frequent changes in supply have necessitated the change to "Select Hardwood" because otherwise they would be constantly changing their marketing materials!

thank you Andrew................................

It was also discussed in the UMGF link

I own (like many here) high-end guitars with 5 or more piece necks. When playing a guitar I don't know, or care, how many pieces of wood were claped together to make the neck.

As long as it's a great maker, with a great warranty, I know it will last. If you close your eyes you don't know how many joints, wings or zippers there are on your neck. After all, it's all about tone and playability isn't it?

thanks for the info. that clears things up for me.

this is very true but, while rare, it wouldn't be the first time that an otherwise reputable company made a mistake. i think it pays to keep an eye open at all times. generally, though, i agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.

More About Wings?
 

Does anyone have any pictures of wings, on any guitar, especially Martin, that I can see. I realize it will be difficult to photograph so that they can be seen clearly, but maybe someone can help.

Raine

P.S. When I said I would prefer an all mahogany solid neck, I was thinking about resale value as well as tonality and overall appearance. Need more info about these wings!

Most wings are a better match than that example but yes it conserves wood to make the rough-cut headstock no wider than the rest of the neck. Wings are added, stained to match as best as possible, and Martin gets more necks out of a piece of wood. Most Martin guitars have solid wood headplates on the top so you only see wings from the back.

To some Martin purists wings are a deal breaker, I have some wings and some solid necks, and while I prefer a solid neck my ears are more important than my eyes. I would have bought my HD-28V if it had a zipper on the back and glowed in the dark!

Wings, as well as select hardwood and a lot of related stuff has been discussed in great detail at UMGF. Since those tend to be the real Martin-heads (I know a few hang here but most are over there) it might make sense to lurk (and ask) those folks. Also since they can discuss price and value a lot more freely you will maybe get better opinions on the affect on resale.

Depending on the headstock venier you will maybe see the glue lines on the back but the venier will cover it on the front. Does it weaken the headstock, I think the opinion is not - after all tops and backs are both joined and there is a lot more gluing surface on the headstock. Obviously it would be a really bad idea on a slothead, but probably OK on a paddle.

FWIW - I happen to think of wings like I do the scarf joint/finger joint - no big deal for the good it does saving wood. I have been building lately using one piece Martin style necks, but I think my next ones will be scarfed.

You are a bit confused. The phrase 'African mahogany' is a made up term to market several different kinds of hardwoods that come from different parts of Africa and that look and sound kind of like real mahogany. For example 'African mahogany' has been used as a marketing name for both sapele and khaya, among other things. None of these African species are running short.

What is running close to being commericially logged out is real mahogany which only grows in Central America, northern South America, and parts of the Caribbean. Real mahogany has a botanical name that begins with the word Swietenia. There are three species of Swietenia (real mahogany) and all of them are listed on CITES Appendix II now. The meaning of being listed on one of the three CITES Appendices is:

The Appendix I includes species threatened with extinction that are or may be affected by trade. Trade in Appendix-I specimens may only take place in exceptional circumstances.

Appendix II includes species that are not presently threatened with extinction, but may become so if their trade is not regulated. It also includes species that need to be regulated so that trade in certain other Appendix-I or -II species may be effectively controlled; these species are most commonly listed due to their similarity of appearance to other related CITES species.

Appendix III includes species listed by a range country to obtain international cooperation in controlling trade.

By being listed on Appendix II it means that you have to have special written permission from both exporting and importing countries' CITES organizations for each log you ship and this is the status of all three species of real mahogany.

Here is a listing of the tree species that are CITES listed, by Appendix. Of note are all three species of mahogany (look for Swietenia in Appendix II) and Brazilian rosewood (look for Dalbergia nigra in Appendix I).

You might also find it interesting to see Spanish cedar listed in Appendix III (look for Cedrela odorata). This simply means that one or more countries where it grows have unilaterally added it as being threatened in their own country rather than it being threatened in all of the countries where it grows.

CITES TREE SPECIES LISTINGS

Thanks George.....for the excellent hi-def picture of the headstock w/ wings. If I have my choice, I'd rather have a Martin w/o wings. Not saying anything bad about the overall sound of the guitar, just that I can be counted as one of the Martin purists who will accept nothing less than perfection from my guitars. This means appearance as well as sound. I been to auctions where belt buckle scratches can and often do affect the sale price of a Martin. I can only assume that "wings" would have the same effect.

Raine

Select hardwood is not Spanish cedar. Select hardwood means Martin can use mahogany, Spanish cedar or other wood, depending on what is available at the time without amending the specifications each time they change.

Jim

Whether they accept it or not has no bearing on the truth.

Jim

If you really want to stir things up, go over to UMGF and post a message about wings and select hardwood! Then sit back and watch the sparks fly. ;)

Jim

That is true, however at this point in time Martin is only using mahogany or Spanish cedar - here is the quote from the UMGF FAQ that I cited

"The term “Select Hardwood” simply allows Martin to choose the neck wood based upon what is available at the time. Right now Martin is currently using Spanish Cedar and Mahogany as the two choices for neck wood."

The door is certainly open to change those specs as needed.

It was interesting that when I went to their spec sheet for a plain old D-18 it gives the neck materials as "selected hardwood", but for a D-18A they very proudly say "NECK MATERIAL: Genuine Mahogany"

I've got a Breedlove with a hard rock maple neck (one piece). It doesn't unbalance the guitar, is incredibly stable, and feels very stiff. I have a friend with a custom bubinga 00 Martin with a maple neck. I certainly don't consider these necks inferior to genuine mahogany. I would think they would be more durable and perhaps superior sonically. We all know that maple is used exclusively in the violin family and among fine archtops.