Adirondack braces and hot hide glue - What's the difference?
 

I'm mulling a custom build or buying an existing (new or used) Santa Cruz OM Short Scale. Can anyone tell me what difference exactly adirondack braces and hot hide glue would make to the sound and performance of a short-scale OM?

Construction questions
 

Call and talk with Mr. Hoover himself. I'm sure he'd be willing to talk it through with you if you're thinking about a custom build.

Sound and performance, little to no difference.

Cost, big difference but you get the bragging rights. .......Mike

:lol:

Sadly I'd have to agree here. Although, I can't make fun of people who spend money for the bragging rights, as I do have a vintage series guitar that has a lot of extra on it...

Whether hide glue has any affect is controversial.

I do know that the folks at Huss and Dalton use Adirondack bracing because of it's strength, lighter weight and flexibility which would, in my opinion have an affect on the overall sound.

Many will share their opinions about the benefits or lack thereof of Adi bracing and hot hide glue (HHG), but to my knowledge there is no conclusive (i.e. scientific) proof to substantiate either view. I'm certainly no expert, nor am I a luthier, but I'll take a stab at the theory behind it. Adirondack is generally more dense than Sitka (the other common bracing material), and HHG sets harder than modern glues. Therefore, in theory, the denser Adi braces when glued to the top with the harder setting HHG make a more dense/solid bond, which more efficiently transfers energy/vibration to the top. Whether or not it's worth the upcharge depends on whether or not you believe it makes a noticeable difference. Even the best builders don't all agree, so it's a completely personal decision...

If the Adirondack braces can be made lighter weight than Sitka braces yet have equivalent strength I could see some difference in sound due to that. Glue, not so much. Let the builder choose the options he thinks will give you the sound you want.

I believe they use Hide Glue on Violins and Cellos because you can open up the top by breaking the glue and not damage the wood. Then you can work on the instrument and put it back together with Hide Glue. Is this the same stuff?

HHG is nice for disassembly because you don't need to clean off the old glue. Heat and water will re activate it. As for tone, well, that up for debate.

I'm inclined to think that Adi bracing would have a larger impact on the tone than HHG.
As for exactly how it will change the tone I couldn't say. I have used Adi a lot less than some other spruces.

Here's your answer Gary.

As far as the effect on sound of either of those factors, the effect would be very subtle. Many times you might not be able to pick it out. Add in that any guitar made by SCGC is going to be made to a very high standard, and probably you might not be able to pick out the ones that had adirondack bracing, or hot hide glue.

Or perhaps you could. It won't be a large difference, but it could be audible. One of the builders at SCGC who works with these instruments all the time probably could spot the difference in sound in a flash. Someone who hasn't been around instruments with and without those factors might not be able to discern the difference as readily.

As a woodworking hobbyist, HHG is great for it's short open time - it needs little clamping and sets quickly. That speed in curing is also it's downside - if complicated setup is needed. It lasts a long time, as can be evidenced by the old furniture and musical instruments that utilized it.

As for the wood? No clue. Doubt if the glue is important in sound, either.

As said above, H & D use red spruce bracing as standard, hot hide glue is an option, but you pay for it. No quibble with the sound of most H & D guitars...

Guild also used red spruce bracing from somewhere at the end of the Tacoma-builds and for all the New Hartford builds...if you pin me to the wall on the Standard Series I would have to say I don't know for sure, but have the resource to check.

I got the feel from several luthiers that hot hide glue was current vogue, so they had to offer it, but that it wasn't that big a deal...the Guild Orpheums are/were hide glue, the rest are Tite-Bond...like every one else uses.

You took the words out of my mouth. To me, the best thing about HHG is the ease of disassembly. And being an amateur builder, there's been many times I've had to disassemble. I had to remove all of the braces from a top one time due to an incorrectly angled X brace (long story) and it was much easier with it being hide glue rather than Titebond. Also makes neck and bridge removal much easier too. As far as tone, I have no idea. I've played plenty of guitars built with Titebond that sounded great.

I do think the bracewood would have more of an impact and only use red spruce, mainly because I bought a couple of sizable wedges from Ted Davis back in 2005. Also got some nice tops from him, as well, that I still need to build with. Is there a difference in sound? Not really to my ear, but it always comes in handy to brace with red in case a potential buyer is a red spruce purist and swears there is a difference.

John Greven has written that he uses either Sitka or Adirondack braces according to how stiff the top wood is. A very stiff top with very stiff braces may sound too bright. So he'll use the less stiff brace wood to mellow the tone to where he wants it. Likewise, a less stiff top may need to be stiffened up a bit with the bracing. So just going with Adirondack bracing without knowing whether or not it will work better with a given top may be kind of silly when you think about it. I would certainly leave decisions like that up to the luthier. I would describe the tone I am looking for and let him/her decide how to build it.

HHG? I have no idea.

Bill