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-   -   Trying to Date an Old Kraftsman acoustic (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196435)

16lauren 10-10-2010 04:21 PM

Trying to Date an Old Kraftsman acoustic
 
Got this guitar a few years ago, trying to figure out the year, model, or ANYTHING about it besides that it was an Old Kraftsman for Spiegel. Similar to pics I've seen of 1930's guitars, except for the headstock. Also, the F holes are not cut all the way (see picture), and there is an unusual inlay on the back (I can see the difference in wood grain). As for the last picture, I've seen a few pictures of other guitars with the three shields on the body like that, but any idea what they are or why? (some earlier owner stuck the silver stickers on overtop)
And yes, I'm missing a pick guard :cry:
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...n/GEDC0162.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...n/GEDC0186.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...n/GEDC0182.jpg
The engraving is so shallow you can't see it in the photo, but the shield has a "K" and the the banner says "Old Kraftsman"

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...n/GEDC0190.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...n/GEDC0178.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...n/GEDC0177.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...n/GEDC0183.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...n/GEDC0174.jpg

Dr. Spivey 10-10-2010 04:31 PM

I don't know anything about them, but the very first guitar I ever played was identical. My friend Bobby's dad picked it up in a pawnshop in Chicago. $10 for the guitar, another $1.50 for a cardboard case. That was in 1969. Cool sounding old guitar, as I recall.

Jimmie 10-10-2010 05:22 PM

It's made by Kay. That shield and K logo (often with a banner above, and often duplicated on the guitar's interior) was used extensively in the mid- to late 30s.

vintageparlors 10-11-2010 06:43 AM

+1 on Jimmie's note. The ribbon binding is another tell tale sign.

Don't you hate it when the guitar keeps moving while you're trying to take its picture!

zombywoof 10-11-2010 07:53 AM

Only a guess but I do not think the guitar was made by Kay. The checkerboard binding, pointed dome headstock, the three letters on the body, and a few other things indicate a Gibson-made Old Kraftsman which were offered by Spiegel around 1936/1937.

16lauren 10-11-2010 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintageparlors (Post 2372448)
+1 on Jimmie's note. The ribbon binding is another tell tale sign.

Don't you hate it when the guitar keeps moving while you're trying to take its picture!

LOL.:ha:

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombywoof (Post 2372521)
Only a guess but I do not think the guitar was made by Kay. The checkerboard binding, pointed dome headstock, the three letters on the body, and a few other things indicate a Gibson-made Old Kraftsman which were offered by Spiegel around 1936/1937.

Is there anywhere I can get info on the Gibson-made ones?

Bingoccc 10-11-2010 11:54 AM

http://kingofkays.com/history.aspx


http://books.google.com/books?id=sge...gibson&f=false

Page309 in this text references the Gibsons.

arie 10-11-2010 01:25 PM

here's what I was able to dig up:

"8708 Old Kraftsman Arch-top Guitar – 1937

Similar to Recording King M-5
Body size 16 ¼” x 20 ¼” by 4 ½” deep
Curly maple back & sides, Carved spruce top
RW fingerboard with large “diamond” MOP inlays
RW adjustable bridge w/ MOP “diamond” inlays on sides
5-ply maple 14-fret neck
“Pointed dome” peghead shape with engraved MOP crown & RK logo with large diamond
“Checkered” or multi-ply binding top, single bound back, fingerboard & elevated pickguard
Hinged nickel tailpiece & individual Grover tuners"

source:
http://www.fox-guitars.com/Gibson-Made_Brands.html

I'm not saying that this is your guitar but it would appear to have some common features and it's the only mention I could find regarding the checkered binding. What bugs me is that the f holes are broken up similar to Kay's Sherwood Deluxe....

does your guitar have these dimensions?
are there any numbers inside at all? directly under the f holes?
can you get some better pix?

anyway, it sure is an odd one. time for antiques roadshow?

good luck :)

zombywoof 10-11-2010 01:41 PM

The 8708 looks like pretty darn close, right down to the three letters on the body.

The mid-1930s is a strange period from Kay. For a couple years, 1934 to 1936 I think, they used the Kay Deluxe moniker which seems to have been a transitional thing between the Kay Kraft and Kay logos. Headstocks were also all over the place (I still play a mid-1930s Kay Deluxe archtop which sports an Oahu headstock).

Jimmie 10-11-2010 01:51 PM

There is some good information at www.fox-guitars.com on Gibson-made instruments for other companies. I suspect this was "upgraded" by someone, as the neck inlays and back inlay are nothing I've seen on any model. The f-holes argue for Kay: can't remember any Gibson-mades with the three-piece f-holes. It looks to be a fine guitar, whoever made it.

brian a. 10-11-2010 02:41 PM

Here is some info I have been able to dig up:
Old Kraftsman ca 1930s-1960s, brandname for Spiegel catalog guitars made by Regal, Kay and some by Gibson. Gibson only from fall 1936 through spring 1937.
Gibson made models have an S-prefix number.
The 2154/8707 16" wide, dot inlay, stenciled vase and curlicues on peghead, Old Kaftsman stenciled in block letters across peghead.
The 8708 16" wide, inlay of diamond with 3 horizontal lines on each side to form rectangle and had Old horizontally across peghead and Kraftsman vertically. It is similar to the Recording King M-5 made by Gibson 16" 1936-1938 and 17" 1939-1941 that included checkered top binding.

vintageparlors 10-11-2010 04:03 PM

Lauren
Hats off to your research team. That's what makes this forum #1 on the planet.

While we're on the subject.........I was wondering whether I might use them when you're done, you know...if I get stuck on identifying pedigree on a vintage flat top at some point?

16lauren 10-15-2010 01:41 PM

First of all, thanks everyone for all the helpful responses. Sorry its taken me a few days to get back. I'm about to post some new/better pics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arie (Post 2372810)
here's what I was able to dig up:

"8708 Old Kraftsman Arch-top Guitar – 1937

Similar to Recording King M-5
Body size 16 ¼” x 20 ¼” by 4 ½” deep
Curly maple back & sides, Carved spruce top
RW fingerboard with large “diamond” MOP inlays
RW adjustable bridge w/ MOP “diamond” inlays on sides
5-ply maple 14-fret neck
“Pointed dome” peghead shape with engraved MOP crown & RK logo with large diamond
“Checkered” or multi-ply binding top, single bound back, fingerboard & elevated pickguard
Hinged nickel tailpiece & individual Grover tuners"

source:
http://www.fox-guitars.com/Gibson-Made_Brands.html

I'm not saying that this is your guitar but it would appear to have some common features and it's the only mention I could find regarding the checkered binding. What bugs me is that the f holes are broken up similar to Kay's Sherwood Deluxe....

does your guitar have these dimensions?
are there any numbers inside at all? directly under the f holes?
can you get some better pix?

anyway, it sure is an odd one. time for antiques roadshow?

good luck :)

Thanks for the link, I looked through and yeah the 8708 is the closest to my guitar. I know the Grover tuners are on it b/c they were a bit of a surprise for the guy who cleaned it up and restrung it for me. However, I measured the guitar, its 15.5" wide x 20" tall x 4.125" deep. A couple of more differences:
-The bridge does not have MOP inlays
-fingerboard 17 3/4" long
-no markings inside the f holes

I thought that the 8708 was it because I can tell that the last letter on the body is a "G" just like the picture. I'm hesitant to peel of the stickers to look at the other two letters, though. I've emailed Fox Guitars, no definite answer yet, but they don't think its a Gibson because they don't usually do inlays.


Quote:

Originally Posted by vintageparlors (Post 2372991)
Lauren
Hats off to your research team. That's what makes this forum #1 on the planet.

While we're on the subject.........I was wondering whether I might use them when you're done, you know...if I get stuck on identifying pedigree on a vintage flat top at some point?

Of course I can share :) This is a great group of folks. Glad I stumbled on this site.

Howard Klepper 10-15-2010 04:02 PM

Everything about this guitar says Kay; nothing about it says Gibson. Probably late 30's to early 40's with that binding.

16lauren 10-16-2010 09:07 AM

I think we found it!
 
Thanks to Paul from Fox Guitars, found a Speigel catalog ad for a Kay Old Kraftsman Symphonic. This might be it!

Thanks also to all of you for helping me out.

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...dKraftsman.jpg


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