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-   -   Setup question - If neck relief is good and the nut is good.... (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501837)

JackB1 02-28-2018 08:48 AM

Setup question - If neck relief is good and the nut is good....
 
OK trying to setup my Yamaha AC3M myself and trying to get the action a little bit lower. It's currently 4/32" at the 12th fret, low E string.

The neck relief is good.....as low as can be without buzzing. It's got a slight
amount of relief. Almost straight, but not.

I checked the nut and that is as low as it should be.

So is the only thing left to adjust the saddle? Is sanding a saddle down easy?I've never attempted this before but it looks easy. Or should I just bring it to a luthier to do?

D. Churchland 02-28-2018 08:49 AM

How tall is the saddle from the top of the bridge?

JackB1 02-28-2018 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Kirk (Post 5654523)
How tall is the saddle from the top of the bridge?

At what point? And why would that matter? I can measure it later though if you think it's important.

It looks like this:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2i74j2t.jpg

charles Tauber 02-28-2018 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5654529)
At what point? And why would that matter? I can measure it later though if you think it's important.

To reduce the string height by 1/32" at the 12th fret you'll need to remove 2/32" at the saddle. To ensure an adequate downward force on the saddle you'll need a minimum of about 1/16" (2/32") of saddle projecting from the top of the bridge.

If you know what you have in the way of saddle height, and you know what you want to end up with, you can determine before you start if it can be done with what you have.

D. Churchland 02-28-2018 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5654529)
At what point? And why would that matter? I can measure it later though if you think it's important.

Why wouldn't it matter?

Saddle too high = problem

Saddle too low = problem

In trying to diagnose the problem, you asked about sanding a saddle.

If the saddle is already low and you still have 4/32" at the 12th, it might be that the neck is the issue.

If the saddle is too high, you can cut it down a bit. You need to measure before you cut. That goes for everything.

murrmac123 02-28-2018 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5654520)
Is sanding a saddle down easy?I've never attempted this before but it looks easy. Or should I just bring it to a luthier to do?

Your choice, but with the right tools, yes, it's easy.

Guest 1928 02-28-2018 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5654520)
OK trying to setup my Yamaha AC3M myself and trying to get the action a little bit lower. It's currently 4/32" at the 12th fret, low E string.

I agree that action is high for most players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5654520)
The neck relief is good.....as low as can be without buzzing. It's got a slight amount of relief. Almost straight, but not.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but when you're discussing things on a forum, without pictures of having the instrument in hand, measurements really help. I've had people tell me the relief is "good" and when I measure it I find it's five times more than I'd like.

Also, "as low as it can be without buzzing" is a peculiar way to define good relief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5654520)
I checked the nut and that is as low as it should be.

How did you check that? There are several ways and some of the most common are the worst.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5654520)
So is the only thing left to adjust the saddle? Is sanding a saddle down easy?I've never attempted this before but it looks easy. Or should I just bring it to a luthier to do?

IF the relief and nut are truly where they should be then, then saddle is the next step.

Lowering it is not particularly difficult, but not everyone has the same abilities with tools.

JackB1 02-28-2018 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Yates (Post 5654557)
I agree that action is high for most players.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but when you're discussing things on a forum, without pictures of having the instrument in hand, measurements really help. I've had people tell me the relief is "good" and when I measure it I find it's five times more than I'd like.

I'll try and get some pics Todd. This is a learning experience for me and I want to learn. I'm tired of leaving my guitars at a shop for 2 weeks only to find out they did something I could have easily done myself.

Neck relief I measure by capo-ing the first fret and holding down the string where it joins with the body and then I measure in the middle (7th fret) the distance between the top of the fret and the bottom of the string. But it's such a TINY amount, it's tough to measure exactly. If I tap on the string I can see it move a little to touch the fret, but's a teeny tiny amount. I can try taking pics of the measurement, but I only have an iphone so I'm not sure they will come out ok.

Nut height I measure by capoing at the 3rd fret and then measure the space between the top of the first fret and the bottom of the string. Again, there is a TINY amount of clearance here and it tough to measure, but I will try. There is no buzzing on the open strings, so it's possible it can go lower, but when I eyeball it, it looks like its not too high.

charles Tauber 02-28-2018 09:36 AM

This might be of help to you in lowering the saddle: Basic Guitar Setup 101.

http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Res...May%202015.pdf


In some circumstances it makes sense to shorten the saddle from the bottom. In such cases be aware that if the guitar has an under-saddle transducer, the bottom of the saddle must be FLAT or you'll get uneven response from the transducer.

JackB1 02-28-2018 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charles Tauber (Post 5654574)
This might be of help to you in lowering the saddle: Basic Guitar Setup 101.

http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Res...May%202015.pdf

In some circumstances it makes sense to shorten the saddle from the bottom. In such cases be aware that if the guitar has an under-saddle transducer, the bottom of the saddle must be FLAT or you'll get uneven response from the transducer.

That's an excellent guide Charles! Thanks for doing that!

I had never heard of that method of checking nut height where you compare the effort needed for a bar cord at the first fret compared to say the 7th fret. I thought the bar chords at the first fret were SUPPOSED to take more
effort or needed to be pressed down harder than bar chords way up the neck.

charles Tauber 02-28-2018 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5654668)
That's an excellent guide Charles! Thanks for doing that!

You're welcome.

Quote:

I had never heard of that method of checking nut height where you compare the effort needed for a bar cord at the first fret compared to say the 7th fret. I thought the bar chords at the first fret were SUPPOSED to take more
effort or needed to be pressed down harder than bar chords way up the neck.

It is very qualitative and not a particularly "accurate" method. For actually judging the string height at the nut for each string, I prefer checking each string as I describe. Others use different methods, such as fretting the second fret and observing how much space there is above the first fret and the fretted string.

Most players simply accept excessive string heights at the nut - and any accompanying intonation issued - as "normal". It doesn't have to be that way. If you've never had a good setup done by a skilled repair person, invest in one as part of your education. You'll then know what is possible and can use that as your guide for future setup work that you do.

ChalkLitIScream 02-28-2018 03:53 PM

I see youve got enough info from the folks above so far, so I wont comment on that.
I will say that Ive read discussions here where its the height of the strings above the soundboard that is important. Of course, you need strings to have a sufficient break angle so that they dont just buzz when struck.

Take that as you will. Ive no comment on the topic.

LeightonBankes 03-01-2018 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 5654529)
At what point? And why would that matter? I can measure it later though if you think it's important.

It looks like this:

http://i67.tinypic.com/2i74j2t.jpg

If that is a picture of it, it DOES appear it could go down some, plenty sticking out of the bridge to my eye

BT55 03-01-2018 10:36 PM

Setup question - If neck relief is good and the nut is good....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by charles Tauber (Post 5654535)
To reduce the string height by 1/32" at the 12th fret you'll need to remove 2/32" at the saddle. To ensure an adequate downward force on the saddle you'll need a minimum of about 1/16" (2/32") of saddle projecting from the top of the bridge.



If you know what you have in the way of saddle height, and you know what you want to end up with, you can determine before you start if it can be done with what you have.



Thank you for the calculation. I always knew that there had to be a calculation for resizing a bridge saddle. I would remove small amounts until I got to the correct string height. You just saved me a lot of time and effort!!!


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