Shims under the bridge

multivir · #1 10-02-2012, 03:07 PM

A question to all the luthiers on the forum.

I had my guitar set up and (like all guitar players) wanted the string height it to be a bit lower.

It was fine at first, but now (two weeks later) it's buzzing. I keep my guitars properly humidified. My guitar repair guy told me that he already had taken off too much from the bridge, so he put a little shim between the bridge and the soundboard.

I assume that if I get another setup, this shim will either be replaced by a thicker one or joined by another one on top of it. Is that ok or should I ask for a new bridge? I assume that the contact between strings and soundboard is crucial and the more separate parts you have, the worse this connection will be.

Is that a theoretical value or does it make a difference in tone?

clinchriver · #2 10-02-2012, 04:47 PM

Shim under the bridge........ or shim under the saddle? Lets hope he shimmed the saddle. A larger shim or new saddle is easy.

multivir · #3 10-02-2012, 05:27 PM

Sorry for the confusion (english is not my mother tongue). Naturally, he shimmed the saddle, not the bridge. So should I rather go for a completely new saddle or just a thicker or extra shim? It's a really nice, handmade guitar. I'm thinking about ordering a new saddle from the maker (Bourgeois). With international shipping, it's not going to be cheap. So my current options are
- shim
- new no name saddle
- new original saddle

What would you suggest?

rwskaggs · #4 10-02-2012, 05:48 PM

You will have less problems, and better sound with a one-piece (that is, not-shimmed) saddle. It is fairly easy to make one out of cow's bone - just follow the original saddle profile and make it a bit deeper.

Shims tend to move around unless properly made of compatible materials. I've seen paper, plastic and wood scrap used as shims. None are as consistent as one piece of bone....

bobby b · #5 10-02-2012, 05:51 PM

Order a new saddle....if ya like, shim it till ya get the one you order......shims are cheap and easy, but a temporary solution IMO

Tom West · #6 10-02-2012, 07:01 PM

No disrespect to Bourgeois,but his saddles are no better then a no name if it's the same material. You don't say who or where you are,so unless your in noman's land surely you can get a bit of material to make a saddle.
Tom

multivir · #7 10-03-2012, 01:47 AM

I'm in Switzerland. We obviously have cows, so their bones must be somewhat available. :-)

Seriously, I'll talk to my luthier, but if I end up ordering a saddle from the US, I might order from Bourgeois cause then the fit and the compensation would be perfect. I guess with shipping etc. the price difference will be small. But you're right - the material is the same.

It's just a PITA, cause my luthier is about two hours away from me. I'm more of a player than a luthier and don't feel comfortable doing my first attempt on a bone saddle from scratch on such a beautiful guitar. I might save some nerves by ordering bone shims online and attach one to the bottom of the bridge with super glue.

state-it · #8 10-03-2012, 10:03 AM

If you can bare to be without use of your Bourgeois for a week then you can send the saddle to Chris Alsop guitars in the UK, and he'll make an exact bone copy of yours one (plus the extra height you want) for £10.50 or thereabouts +p&p.

If you want 1mm extra action, then the saddle will have to be 2mm higher than it is already.
1/2mm extra action, than the new saddle will have to be 1mm higher than it is already, etc... Just tell him how much extra action you want.

Check him out. I'm just a satisfied customer, he's gone way out of his way to help me in the past. He's at www.chrisalsopguitar.co.uk. Great value and a great guy.

clinchriver · #9 10-03-2012, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobby b

Order a new saddle....if ya like, shim it till ya get the one you order......shims are cheap and easy, but a temporary solution IMO

I have a guitar or two out in the world that I super-glued a properly fitted shim to the bottom of the saddle and its working just fine. It was the customer's choice they did not want to spring for a new saddle.

the.ronin · #10 10-03-2012, 06:46 PM

No offense to your luthier but I think it might be odd that he "lowered it too much" so he has already had to shim it. I'd expect more that's all. Perhaps consider a different luthier but it sounds like this guy is the closest to you.

Wizid · #11 10-04-2012, 07:11 PM

I am a cabinetmaker by trade and I have always felt the use of shims is a way of correcting inaccurate workmanship. I discovered a shim under the saddle on my Washburn after a set up by a local luthier, and I have been doing my own work ever since. I like the Graphtec tusq saddles and have fit them in all my guitars. I buy them on ebay for under $9.00 with free shipping.

mc1 · #12 10-05-2012, 05:13 AM

i think the shim should be glued to the saddle. otherwise, i wouldn't be concerned about it.

redir · #13 10-08-2012, 07:55 AM

In Jose Ramirez's book he talks about fixing action with shims. He's a master luthier for anyone who doesn't know. Think about it, your saddle rests on wood on all sides including the bottom, IT does not actually rest on the soundboard. A properly placed wooden shim is perfectly acceptable way to keep using your quality intonated saddle. If its a cheap plastic saddle that's another story.

And I wouldn't accuse this guy of doing shoddy work after all the OP stated that the guitar played fine and then all of a sudden started to buzz. This is the time of year when guitars get a little wacky. Some classical guitar builders make two saddles, one for the summer months and one for the winter just in case.

gregsguitars · #14 10-08-2012, 10:25 AM

Sometimes if properly done a shim is a reasonable "fix" but personally I would have a new saddle made to correct the problem for good. I agree with "redir" as above mentioned remember our guitars are wood and steel ( two elements that are not inherently made to go together) elemental/environmental changes do effect them as far as the setup and adjustments will need to be made from time to time.

redir · #15 10-08-2012, 01:04 PM

IT's why when I get a customer that comes in and wants the "lowest possible action" we usually have a little 15 minute discussion on why that might not be the best idea, or at least that, the lowest possible action is probably not going to be as low as you think. It takes a lot of time to set up a bone saddle properly especially if you have intonation problems and the luthier makes adjustments to the saddle to correct it. Later when the owner or a repair tech tries to get the lowest action things can happen and you get buzz. A shim will work, I doubt that anyone would be able to tell a difference in tone. THe right saddle that fits is of course the better option but if you have a quality made saddle and are looking at the difference in a $20 or $80 repair for little to none if any improvement in tone then?

Of course I've seen anything from credit cards, to nails, and toothpicks used as shims, in that case well...

Oh and I should clarify too that a shim is only for a very minor adjustment, if you have a a huge shim under there then you need a new saddle, mostly because there will not be enough actual saddle in the slot, but 1/32 in or something like that is fine. Often times it comes down to just shimming one side. In that case I glue the shim to the bottom of the saddle and then sand it off at an angle so the bottom is flush.