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Landru
10-28-2011, 12:34 PM
Brian, I have the Peterson Stroboclip tuner. Could you elaborate a little on the "sweetened modes"? Is that something you punch up on the tuner or something that's just built in to it?


Tom

Yes - you "punch them up" on the tuner. The instruction sheet included with the tuner lists all the sweetened modes and what they are for.

Some here have noted that no tuner gets a guitar right on pitch, that they get into the ballpark, so to speak, and then fine tune by their own ear. I agree with this, but the important point missed is the on-stage aspect of tuning. One can't get the D string right and then have the room be quiet so to tune the rest of the guitar, and in this instance I must rely on the tuner to do the entire job. Also - if the piano is below or above A = 440, I can set the Peterson to this new normal and then tune my guitar accordingly.

mchalebk
10-28-2011, 12:49 PM
And pray, what is tempered tuning? I mean I know what equal temperament is and all that, but I am very interested to hear how you achieve this on the guitar.

Robbie

Tuning a guitar is a series of compromises. Most electronic tuners (as I understand it) assume equal temperament, resulting in a poor set of compromises. If you use a standard tuner and tune dead on, your guitar will not be in tune. The sweetened/tempered modes try to make better compromises.

The following is from an article on the Peterson website:

Peterson's proprietary GTR™ Sweetened Tuning™ is designed to improve the sound of musical intervals on guitar, especially 4ths and 5ths. By taking advantage of a few coincidences such as the preponderance of 4th and 5th intervals appearing in many chord positions, the particular E-A-D-G-B-E arrangement of standard guitar tuning (and also the half-step down or "dropped" tuning variation), and the less-than-perfect overtones of vibrating strings, Peterson has introduced a number of slight variations which can maximize the tuning quality of chords.

These guitar-specific Sweeteners™, including G5TH and P5TH in the AutoStrobe™ 490-ST, and GTR in the Virtual Strobe™ series, improve tuning in general but are especially important for "power chords" which feature 4th and 5th intervals. To gain maximum benefit from this feature, the guitar should be intonated (string lengths adjusted) using the strobe tuner in Equal preset, and tuned thereafter using the Guitar (GTR) temperament preset.

Before I got my Peterson, I found that I could make my guitars sound more in tune by flatting the 2nd and 5th strings a little and the 6th string a little more. Since I got the Peterson, I tune dead on and it sounds fine without any further tweaks.

Brent Hutto
10-28-2011, 12:54 PM
Any more I mostly play mandolin and not guitar. The real test of an electronic tuner is whether each pair of string is dead-on perfectly in tune to my ear when the tuner says they are both "in tune". I'm not one who likes a "wet" tuning of unison courses.

Most any tuner works OK for me on guitar if I'm willing to do a little sweetening by ear. Getting unison pairs of strings in tune quickly is an occasion where the StroboClip really shines. If you get the bars to stop moving on each string, then when you play them together there is no beat note at all.

At least for the two minutes you get for any mandolin to stay in tune...if you're lucky. Temperamental little beasts (pun intended).

walternewton
10-28-2011, 01:09 PM
Most electronic tuners (as I understand it) assume equal temperament, resulting in a poor set of compromises.

I don't think Equal Temperament is a poor assumption - after all, it's the tuning scheme literally built into the design of the guitar by the placement of the frets!

I have a Peterson Strobostomp, and like it a lot, and though a guitar inherently can never be "perfectly" in tune I personally find the default (Equal Temperament) setting works better for me than any of the "sweetened" settings.

JamesD
10-28-2011, 02:22 PM
With that low resolution display? No better than +-2 cents

It is guaranteed to be accurate to 0.02 cents.

DrDavid
10-28-2011, 02:56 PM
Tuning a guitar is a series of compromises.

Before I got my Peterson, I found that I could make my guitars sound more in tune by flatting the 2nd and 5th strings a little and the 6th string a little more.

Exactly.

If you don't use a Peterson, or another tuner with proprietary "sweetening" algorithms, the easiest tuning compromise which often produces good results (at least to my ears) is to flat slightly the 2nd, 5th, and (a little more) 6th strings.

For me, this is particularly important in songs where you're playing a lot of first position C and G chords, the root notes of which can sound horribly sour without the slight flatting.

..

Huckleberry
10-28-2011, 03:18 PM
Since buying a Peterson StroboClip it's been the only tuner I use, need or want. It's brilliant - highly recommended.

The only con is the slightly fiddle on/off button, but I've not found it to be a problem in real usage.

mstuartev
10-28-2011, 04:44 PM
http://images.esellerpro.com/2225/I/254/5/medtuning-fork.jpgpretty accurate

Glennwillow
10-28-2011, 04:58 PM
In my mind, there are two clip on tuners worth considering:

Snark (very affordable, reasonably accurate)
Peterson Stroboclip (very accurate, affordable by Peterson standards).

I've got a Peterson Virtual Strobe tuner (I think it's the VS-1) and have been very happy with it. If I wanted a clip on, I would get the Stroboclip.
This is where I am, too. I mostly use my Peterson Stroboclip, about $70.:)

- Glenn

prusaw
10-28-2011, 05:33 PM
Those blue snarks work better than my more expensive ones-- they're about $10!

peteom
10-28-2011, 06:36 PM
It is guaranteed to be accurate to 0.02 cents.

Detection accuracy and display accuracy are 2 different things. Another words marketing bs.

Landru
10-28-2011, 06:41 PM
Those blue snarks work better than my more expensive ones-- they're about $10!

I like the snark tuners, but they are no match for the Peterson - just at 1/7th the price, a very attractive alternative.

walternewton
10-28-2011, 06:41 PM
Detection accuracy and display accuracy are 2 different things. Another words marketing bs.

peteom, have you ever actually used a Sonic Research tuner?

mc1
10-28-2011, 07:17 PM
Thank you for all the advice. As several people have erased the question, yes I can definitely hear that my guitar still ins't quite in tune even though my Boss TU2 says so, which is why I want something with a little more precision. My intellitouch has all but given up the ghost. The intonation seems to be OK, its just that when I check all octaves and 5ths as I usually do I often have to tweak the tuning slightly. Maybe its just my ears.

Robbie

your octaves should be in tune but not your fifths. with equal temperament, the fifths are not perfectly in tune. tweaking them to be in just intonation (no beat) will cause some chords and intervals to be less in tune. using that fifth to tune another fifth will compound the problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

you can also search equal temperament for more information.

if you play electric guitar, one nice thing about an ultra precise tuner like a peterson is that it will allow you to set the saddles accurately.

Billy Boy
10-28-2011, 07:38 PM
Of all the tuners I've had and used, my two favorites are:

Peterson Stroboclip
Seiko STX1

Both work very well and are easy to use.

HHP
10-28-2011, 07:43 PM
My current favorite is not a clip on. It does have a big honkin' screen that I can see and bar plus strobe visuals when tuning. Also a metronome and a recorder.

http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/product_detail/174/medium/pt7_top.jpg

Sombras
10-28-2011, 09:36 PM
Turbo Tuner! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bY9H7ec6_0)

Absolutely love this pedal.

JamesD
10-28-2011, 10:30 PM
Detection accuracy and display accuracy are 2 different things. Another words marketing bs.

In strobe tuners, there is a frequency reference that is a quartz crystal. The better the tolerance on the crystal the better the reference. On top of that, there is a temperature effect on the frequency stability and better crystals have better temperature compensation. A junk tuner will have a junk crystal that may be good to a few cents. This is fine for many. For others, not so much. The Turbo Tuner has an extraordinarily good frequency reference and temperature compensation, hence the 0.02 cent capability. Tuning is then up to the operator to match the rotation of the tuner's lights with the frequency reference. When they are the same frequency the lights do not spin clockwise or counter clockwise. Resolution of the display has nothing to do with it. Operator and device only.

endpin
10-28-2011, 11:34 PM
IMO the accuracy/precision of the crystal oscillator is not the culprit.

I believe in a lot of these tuners, the frequency comparator has an intentional "dead-band" (hysteresis) applied where once the string frequency is captured it remains phase locked with the oscillator within certain limits to give a more positive indication of "in-tune".

With a free-running stroboscopic tuner you usually see the string frequency drift in and out of sync with the oscillator. I believe you are seeing the actual variance of the string frequency, but that is as good as you can get it, the string itself being the weakest link with more variability than what you are measuring with.

peteom
10-29-2011, 01:49 AM
In strobe tuners, there is a frequency reference that is a quartz crystal. The better the tolerance on the crystal the better the reference. On top of that, there is a temperature effect on the frequency stability and better crystals have better temperature compensation. A junk tuner will have a junk crystal that may be good to a few cents. This is fine for many. For others, not so much. The Turbo Tuner has an extraordinarily good frequency reference and temperature compensation, hence the 0.02 cent capability. Tuning is then up to the operator to match the rotation of the tuner's lights with the frequency reference. When they are the same frequency the lights do not spin clockwise or counter clockwise. Resolution of the display has nothing to do with it.

Resolution of the display is everything my friend. If what you said was true, a 2 LED display would show as much information as 20 LED display, which obviously can't be true.

Real Peterson strobe has a 144 segment display and goes down to 0.1 cent. Turbo Tuner is 20 segment. You do the math.

ac
10-29-2011, 06:14 AM
Resolution of the display is everything my friend. If what you said was true, a 2 LED display would show as much information as 20 LED display, which obviously can't be true.

Real Peterson strobe has a 144 segment display and goes down to 0.1 cent. Turbo Tuner is 20 segment. You do the math.

I am unclear as to how Peterson's StroboClip maintains it's 0.1 cent accuracy without all the segments--but I've read that it matches exactly Peterson's best desktop models--and so, especially for things like adjusting intonation issues, it's quite a bargain.

I know it's not a real strobe but it uses a virtual visual strobe-like appearance for some reason, but for sure keeps accurate. So are segments the critical element or is it something else?

There is no other brand made that is a clip on with 0.1 cent accuracy--which is why I believe you cannot find a difference in price on this anywhere. A few other brands make table or foot stomp models to 0.1 cent, but only Peterson has worked out a clip-on. I love Snark, but that is impressive technology.

JamesD
10-29-2011, 06:41 AM
Resolution of the display is everything my friend. If what you said was true, a 2 LED display would show as much information as 20 LED display, which obviously can't be true.

Real Peterson strobe has a 144 segment display and goes down to 0.1 cent. Turbo Tuner is 20 segment. You do the math.

This is a common mistake that many people make. More digits does not necessarily give more information. Rather than use a tuner, consider temperature. Which is more accurate, a reading that shows 20.35 degrees or one that shows 20.239412106 degrees?

The hint is: there is not enough information to solve the problem. It would appear that the one with more digits is more accurate but that number is of no value if the tolerance for the number is not listed.

Written again with tolerances the numbers become 20.35 plus or minus 0.01 and the second number becomes 20.239412106 plus or minus 0.2 . The real temperature range for each becomes 20.34 to 20.36 for the first one and 20.039412106 to 20.4912106 for the second one. Rewritten for simplicity, the first is 20.35 +-0.02 and the second is 20.239412106 +/- 0.2

This says that even though there are less digits (segments), the unit with the best specifications will win out over one that has many digits (segments).

A many segment display may make you feel like you are getting a better number but if the internals are not their, it is a lot of segments that don't mean what you would like them to mean. For the Peterson it is 1 cent +/- 0.1 cent and for the Turbo Tuner is is 1 cent +/- 0.02 cents. It should be clear now that all of those digits or segments do not change the unit's overall accuracy.

ac
10-29-2011, 06:55 AM
................. For the Peterson it is 1 cent +/- 0.1 cent and for the Turbo Tuner is is 1 cent +/- 0.02 cents. It should be clear now that all of those digits or segments do not change the unit's overall accuracy.

So you are saying the Turbo Tuner is more accurate then? I'm a bit confused.

JamesD
10-29-2011, 09:18 AM
So you are saying the Turbo Tuner is more accurate then? I'm a bit confused.

Yes.

If the Peterson reads 440 +/- 0.1 then the true pitch can be 440 minus 0.1 cents up to 440 plus 0.1 cents.

If the Turbo Tuner reads 440 +/- 0.02 then the true pitch is 440 minus 0.02 cents up to 440 plus 0.02 cents .

EDIT: These are the ideal limits of the two true strobe tuners. To address peteom's comments, the Peterson has more segments so it has the potential to see smaller differences between tones than the turbo tuner that has fewer segments. It is just the Turbo Tuner's absolute tone will be correct.

peteom
10-29-2011, 09:46 AM
I am unclear as to how Peterson's StroboClip maintains it's 0.1 cent accuracy without all the segments--.
It does not. Mine was literally 2 cents off. None of the virtual strobe technology can compare to the real thing.

robj144
10-29-2011, 09:54 AM
This is a common mistake that many people make. More digits does not necessarily give more information. Rather than use a tuner, consider temperature. Which is more accurate, a reading that shows 20.35 degrees or one that shows 20.239412106 degrees?

The hint is: there is not enough information to solve the problem. It would appear that the one with more digits is more accurate but that number is of no value if the tolerance for the number is not listed.

Written again with tolerances the numbers become 20.35 plus or minus 0.01 and the second number becomes 20.239412106 plus or minus 0.2 . The real temperature range for each becomes 20.34 to 20.36 for the first one and 20.039412106 to 20.4912106 for the second one. Rewritten for simplicity, the first is 20.35 +-0.02 and the second is 20.239412106 +/- 0.2

This says that even though there are less digits (segments), the unit with the best specifications will win out over one that has many digits (segments).

A many segment display may make you feel like you are getting a better number but if the internals are not their, it is a lot of segments that don't mean what you would like them to mean. For the Peterson it is 1 cent +/- 0.1 cent and for the Turbo Tuner is is 1 cent +/- 0.02 cents. It should be clear now that all of those digits or segments do not change the unit's overall accuracy.

However, if 20.239412106 was only accurate to a decimal place, it would not be written with that many decimal places in any technical document. The number of decimals in a technical/scientific document implicitly represent the tolerance via significant figures.

JamesD
10-29-2011, 10:23 AM
However, if 20.239412106 was only accurate to a decimal place, it would not be written with that many decimal places in any technical document. The number of decimals in a technical/scientific document implicitly represent the tolerance via significant figures.

That is not necessarily true. It is possible to have great precision in being able to determine differences between temperatures or tones so many number of decimal places can be appropriate but the reading may not be accurate to a particular absolute reference like 440.00000000 Hz for example.

EDIT: Conclusions and implications: The Peterson would be favored if everybody playing together shared just one tuner. The Turbo Tuner would be favored if more than one tuner were being used in a group or for slightly more accurate absolute tone.

geetarman
10-29-2011, 10:25 AM
Love my Peterson strobe tuner very accurate.

Landru
10-29-2011, 10:34 AM
Great scientific investigative discussion going on here - lovin' it.

ukrobbiej1
10-29-2011, 11:21 AM
Great scientific investigative discussion going on here - lovin' it.

Yes, definitely getting more than I bargained for here. Memories of degree level pure maths coming flooding back :(