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strumminman
12-12-2010, 09:48 PM
I have just purchased a Bose L1 Model II system with the Tonematch. Because I have a low voice, I need to ensure my Mic level is way up so my audience can hear me clear. However, when I set my mic level high, I get feedback. I can turn down the trim level, however I lose volume; or turn down the volume on the Tonematch or the main, but still can't seem to get the volume I want without the feedback. I would appreciate any suggestions from anyone who has or has had one of these systems. I also play an acoustic guitar through this system. Again, because I don't use a pick (just bare thumb), I need the volume level high for the sound. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

jjrubin
12-12-2010, 11:36 PM
Hi Strumminman,

I think you'll find the Bose forum covers all this stuff in detail http://bose.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x
but here's a quick list:

1. get at least 6 ft. separation between the mic and the tower
2. don't point the mic straight back at the tower; angle it a bit off center relative to the tower, and angle a bit off parallel to the floor
3. use ParaEQ on the T1 to find the specific frequency the mic is feeding back and cut it
4. and/or use zEQ bands to take cuts within a broader range (low, mid, high) where feedback occurs
5. try a different mic preset
6. use the Noise Gate effect on the T1 to cut out the mic entirely below some threshold (when you're not singing and your head is not 'shadowing' the mic)

What mic are you using? I found when upgrading from SM58 to beta58 I needed less gain, and feedback issues pretty much went away.

Earthworm
12-13-2010, 05:47 AM
I've been using Bose systems since they first came out. I sing very close to the mic--lips touching sometimes. This helps a lot. I also angle the mic upward a bit which also helps.

Good luck! You've got a great system!

mike o
12-13-2010, 08:51 AM
Which vocal mic are you using? Look on the Bose forum for mic suggestions that feedback resistant.

Guyute
12-13-2010, 09:05 AM
When I hear that you have a "low" voice, first thing that comes to mind is that if you're not able to get enough volume out of your mic before feeding back, you are either singing out of your range, or you need to learn to project more.

Basically, I'm saying to treat the condition instead of the symptoms.

jseth
12-13-2010, 02:13 PM
I have a Bose Model I Classic - I prefer to run striaght through that, but I have a T1 as well, mostly for the extra inputs in case I have friends sitting in... I have NEVER had any feedback trouble with the mic I use - a Shure Beta 58A - and I don't sing extra loud myself, so I have the volume up pretty good. I leave the system "hot" when I take a break, too; volume up and ready, never even a whimper from the vocal mic...

So, in addition to the other comments here, the FIRST thing to do is to follow Bose's "gain staging" process when setting up your mic channel. Just do it like they suggest (actually a great idea with any PA or mic/guitar, not just Bose's good idea)...

Singing "close-mic" is a good way to limit feedback, as is having the mic slightly angled upward. Some mic's are more prone to feedback than others; perhaps it's time to switch mics? You didn't say what type of microphone you are using, but I'm assuming it's a good one - why have a great sound system and a crappy mic, right?

Let us know if you solve the problem - I REALLY think the gain staging process is going to take care of it, though. Another thing, cut ALL fx on your vocal mic and try it that way. If you use a lot of "treatment" on your vocals, that can wreak havoc with the overall sound.

I do like the suggestion about working on your vocal technique - one thing's for sure, you have to BREATHE when you sing or you'll have nothing to project your notes.

Good luck - I hope this is helpful for you!

Pegleg
12-13-2010, 08:31 PM
I also have a "low" or I'd characterize it as "weak" voice, some days worse than others..... I've never owned a Bose but had the same issue with feedback; tried a lot of remedies, including several different mics and even a feedback destroyer. Aside from the specific advice relative to the Bose, which I have no experience, I'd say you've already gotten some good tips.... of which the best, in my experience are placement (mic to speaker), understand gain staging and, learn to use close mic technique. The issue you're likely to run into relative to close mic technique is proximity effect, some mics are more sensitive than others. The one I've found to be most "forgiving" is the Audix OM7. Oh, by the way, the feedback destroyer works, problem is, whilst it's "killing" the feedback frequency, it's "killing" the vocal quality of your voice. Whatever "sparkle" you have in your voice will become duller with each deployed filter shot. Hope this helps, good luck!

DiSt
12-14-2010, 01:47 AM
...Oh, by the way, the feedback destroyer works, problem is, whilst it's "killing" the feedback frequency, it's "killing" the vocal quality of your voice. Whatever "sparkle" you have in your voice will become duller with each deployed filter shot. Hope this helps, good luck!

Sorry to intrude and partially hijack this thread, but: I beg to differ on that specific point. We also use a feedback destroyer (in conjunction with a large diaphragm condenser mic, so it's almost a necessity), and on most every gig we get compliments on the "airy", "transparent" vocal sound. Granted, those digital filters do indeed tweak the sound, but apparently in a manner that's not necessarily detrimental, at least to the average listener. Or maybe it's because our typical audience is predominantly in the 55+ demographic :)
Then again, them youngins are used to listen to grossly compressed and distorted MP3s...

Pegleg
12-14-2010, 06:57 AM
Sorry to intrude and partially hijack this thread, but: I beg to differ on that specific point. We also use a feedback destroyer (in conjunction with a large diaphragm condenser mic, so it's almost a necessity), and on most every gig we get compliments on the "airy", "transparent" vocal sound. Granted, those digital filters do indeed tweak the sound, but apparently in a manner that's not necessarily detrimental, at least to the average listener. Or maybe it's because our typical audience is predominantly in the 55+ demographic :)
Then again, them youngins are used to listen to grossly compressed and distorted MP3s...

Well, reading your comments, I'm not sure we actually do "differ", but if I'm mistaken, all's good as it's subjective to begin with. Having said that, let me add some specific logic (my logic); if the human voice and, your instrument (acoustic guitar in my case) is made up of multiple frequencies, of which the sum equals the tonal quality and what the human ear hears. And one or more of them causes feedback, the destroyer "kills" it, then at some threshold the human ear will be able to discern that... so, my "take" on your characterization of your experience is either 1. You've done an excellent job of using other techniques to control the condensor mic, and the destroyer has not "killed" enough freqs to discern a dulling of tonal quality or, 2. The "offending" frequencies are coming from the channel your instrument is on and, therefore not affecting your vocals. The unit I've used has both level and filter shot indicator lights, so as I play/sing I can see input level on both the instrument and vocal channels, when filter shots deployed get above 3-4, I can hear the tonal quality getting "duller", and it gets worse as more are deployed. It's more pronounced on my vocals than guitar, but I can clearly hear it. So, I stand by my comment, albeit we've had different experiences.

DiSt
12-14-2010, 07:16 AM
I'm using a single mic setup, no separation between voice and instrument(s). The offending frequencies are caused by room geometry and mic/loudspeaker placement. I let the feedback destroyer do its thing while the room is empty and quiet (as advised by the manufacturer) by gradually increasing master volume. Depending on a number of factors, anything between 8 and 16 individual filters kick in (I can visually monitor the number of active filters).

Of course you're right when you say that the FB destroyer takes away individual frequencies and hence will "distort" the sound (I'm a physicist with a specialization in digital signal processing, so I'm quite familiar with the concept of narrowband notch filters, and I also know what horrible things they do with the phase).

My take of the matter is that the freedom of movement afforded by the single mic technique, and the complete lack of proximity effect (because we usually keep a distance of say 8-10 inches from the mic) make for a more "natural" sound despite the severe interfering of the FB destroyer, at least that's what audience members have told me many times over.

Looks like this is very much a "YMMV" proposition. BTW, I use the Peavey Feedback Ferret, and have used a Sabine unit (with similar results) before.
I have had a horrible experience with an inexpensive Behringer unit the other day, though. Fortunately I was able to return it. Wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. Downright devastating.

BoB/335
12-14-2010, 07:28 AM
I'm using a single mic setup, no separation between voice and instrument(s). The offending frequencies are caused by room geometry and mic/loudspeaker placement. I let the feedback destroyer do its thing while the room is empty and quiet (as advised by the manufacturer) by gradually increasing master volume. Depending on a number of factors, anything between 8 and 16 individual filters kick in (I can visually monitor the number of active filters).

Of course you're right when you say that the FB destroyer takes away individual frequencies and hence will "distort" the sound (I'm a physicist with a specialization in digital signal processing, so I'm quite familiar with the concept of narrowband notch filters, and I also know what horrible things they do with the phase).

My take of the matter is that the freedom of movement afforded by the single mic technique, and the complete lack of proximity effect (because we usually keep a distance of say 8-10 inches from the mic) make for a more "natural" sound despite the severe interfering of the FB destroyer, at least that's what audience members have told me many times over.

Looks like this is very much a "YMMV" proposition. BTW, I use the Peavey Feedback Ferret, and have used a Sabine unit (with similar results) before.
I have had a horrible experience with an inexpensive Behringer unit the other day, though. Fortunately I was able to return it. Wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. Downright devastating.

Chances of having feedabck with your setup seem almost inpossible to avoid.
So you think going for this more "natural" sound despite the severe interfering of the FB destroyer is a better way to go than to get a multi-source pickup system for the guitar and getting the vocals closer to the mic virtually elliminating the cause of feedback and therefore elliminating the frequencies that are being destroyed???

HMmmm that's interesting.

DiSt
12-14-2010, 08:04 AM
... So you think going for this more "natural" sound despite the severe interfering of the FB destroyer is a better way to go than to get a multi-source pickup system for the guitar and getting the vocals closer to the mic virtually elliminating the cause of feedback and therefore elliminating the frequencies that are being destroyed???

HMmmm that's interesting.

Guess it's a matter of choice between a rock and a hard place.
Ever try to install a decent pickup in an openback banjo? A mandolin? A vintage archtop? A dobro?
Many bluegrass acts use the single mic technique. Yes, a five piece band can use it. Makes for a clean uncluttered stage. No forest of mic booms, everybody gets to hear everyone else. Soloists constantly gyrate around the mic, thus automatically providing a sort of a choreography that's appreciated by the audience.
Also, eliminates the need for an additional FOH mixing person.

Of course, this technique isn't suitable for a football stadium, or a noisy bar where you try to cut through the banter. But for an audience that actually wants to listen, just fine.

Here (http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/onemic2.htm)'s a link with details.

and here's a picture (not my band):
http://www.thebluegrassblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/bullseye.jpg

BoB/335
12-14-2010, 08:09 AM
Guess that's a different story.

Earthworm
12-14-2010, 01:23 PM
I could listen to your band all night!

Pegleg
12-14-2010, 07:53 PM
I'm using a single mic setup, no separation between voice and instrument(s). The offending frequencies are caused by room geometry and mic/loudspeaker placement. I let the feedback destroyer do its thing while the room is empty and quiet (as advised by the manufacturer) by gradually increasing master volume. Depending on a number of factors, anything between 8 and 16 individual filters kick in (I can visually monitor the number of active filters).

Of course you're right when you say that the FB destroyer takes away individual frequencies and hence will "distort" the sound (I'm a physicist with a specialization in digital signal processing, so I'm quite familiar with the concept of narrowband notch filters, and I also know what horrible things they do with the phase).

My take of the matter is that the freedom of movement afforded by the single mic technique, and the complete lack of proximity effect (because we usually keep a distance of say 8-10 inches from the mic) make for a more "natural" sound despite the severe interfering of the FB destroyer, at least that's what audience members have told me many times over.

Looks like this is very much a "YMMV" proposition. BTW, I use the Peavey Feedback Ferret, and have used a Sabine unit (with similar results) before.
I have had a horrible experience with an inexpensive Behringer unit the other day, though. Fortunately I was able to return it. Wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. Downright devastating.

This adds the needed clarity I think... the OP can decide which circumstance is most applicable and, in addition, the quality of the feedback destroyer also matters.

alohachris
12-14-2010, 08:52 PM
Aloha Strumminman,

Let's work out some solutions here together, OK?

Try out many different vocal mic's at a store, preferably on an L-1. One type/style/brand of mic doesn't fit every application, gig, venue, or PA system requirements. I bring several different mic types to gigs & also experiment with different speaker placements. It's about preparation. Most of us giggers only bring one mic to gigs & hope it'll work.

I used the L-1 for a couple years & found it best to raise it up higher than suggested - or just off to the side to keep feedback at bay when it got loud at the gig. You could even use a different monitor speaker to hear be able to hear yourself & place the L-1 out to the side a bit, pointed a little away from behind you.

I found that my EV N/D 967 hypercardioid, feedback buster vocal mic was about the only one I could really crank using the L-1 in a noisy, crowded & bright room, with a small stage - without getting feedback. Condenser's often do not work well for those types of gigs.

So, a hypercardioid dynamic vocal mic may provide a better result than a cardioid condenser.

Experiment with vocal mic's & the L-1's placement (like raising it up higher as Or out from behind you as mentioned). Or add another speaker source for monitoring if necessary. It's all about frequencies & space, & matching the tools in your signal chain to the gig.

Of course, the number one control available to you is your EQ. The Tonematch's parametric should work though. Have you wired that in yet? Or, you could use a quality, external 1/3 octave, stereo EQ unit like one of the better Rane's to control a room by notching out the offending frequencies. Using better parametric EQ works for me on all mic's, in ALL venues.

After saying all that, perhaps you could add a touch of compression on your live vocal. Some dynamic voices really need it. TC Electronics makes several compressors that work well for live applications. I use TC's M2000 FX unit in the same way to help control feedback in very bright rooms.

Perhaps a pro who uses the L-1 regularly could make a suggestion here. Matt, Mike?

One final, extravagant suggestion: get a second L-1 & run both in stereo. Place them as you would traditional PA speakers. I've played through such a system - awesome sound, no feedback. And having the speakers out to the sides removes that feedback.

For all the claims, even the Bose can't be used as a monitor & speaker for all situations. Ah, those physics classes never end!

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

Brasilian55
12-15-2010, 09:52 PM
Alohachris,

You wrote,"TC Electronics makes several compressors that work well for live applications. I use TC's M2000 FX unit in the same way to help control feedback in very bright rooms."
Would you mind commenting a bit more about the TC M2000 feedback taming characteristics as well as the Coefficient Optimized Room Emulator (C.O.R.E) technology?

With thanks,

Brasilian55

strumminman
12-16-2010, 09:11 PM
Thanks so much for all the tips and suggestions everybody.
The mic I use is a Shure 58 Beta. It is a good mic but perhaps too sensitive.
I will perhaps try some of the other mics that were suggested.
I do have a trial period for this Bose system and have not yet decided if I will be keeping it. Regardless, I don't believe that the feedback problem has anything to do with the Bose system. It has beautiful sound but pricey which makes my decision difficult. If i retain it, it would be used mostly for solo or 2 player performances at small venues.
Thanks again for your inputs.

jjrubin
12-18-2010, 05:18 PM
I don't think it's the Beta58s!

As I said, upgrading to that mic cured feedback issues for my L1 config.

Before investing in new mics, do yourself a favor and try the placement/angle/proximity advice...that's the most basic and likely solution.

firelakekid2
12-19-2010, 09:49 PM
Our trio has been using a L1 for several years. We do play outdoors at times, and sometimes in bars. At such times the volume in cranked. We all use Shure Beta 58's for vocal; I have a Shure Beta 57 for my dobro and banjo. The key is placement of the L1. When we need a lot of volume we just put the L1 to the side a bit and that usually cures any feedback. It is also important to have the mics tilted up; sing very close to the mic. I like the Shure beta 58's for vocals, I am not so thrilled with the beta 57A. I have not found the key for getting the sound I want from the banjo, but then again, it is a banjo! I think that no matter what mic you get, if the gain isn't right; the placement isn't working for higher volumes, you may have feedback issues.

Guyute
12-20-2010, 12:07 PM
I'll say it again, you need to work on projecting. As a guy who runs an open mic, I see this all the time. Same mic, same gain and while one person will clip the channel, the person immediately after them won't get any volume at all. It's not the mic and it's not the L1, it's how much they're projecting their vocal.

Take a couple vocal lessons and then talk to the coach about mic technique.

jackweasel
12-20-2010, 03:04 PM
I've had my L-1 for.... well, since they first came out and use it every day. Not gigging, but I practice through it in a fairly small room and have learned that in order to fight feedback [at least in my case] is to get your gain settings right and learn to "work" the mic. I've got a Beta 87a that I love to use, but for louder volumes and smaller venues I go back to a dynamic [Sennheiser e815s].
The next thing is to practice with it, just like you would your guitar or any other instrument. It's all a learning process. Too many times we want to blame the equipment and not ourselves. I've wasted a lot of money thinking some particular piece of equipment would make me sound better. The L-1 eventually did because I could hear myself and I got used to the system.
I don't know how long you've had yours, but it takes some "re-listening" to use this type system ad that takes a little time for some of us. Especially those who are used to a high SPL. These things just don't move the kind of air most folks [musicians and audiences, alike] are used to. On the flip side, is clarity and coverage.
My two-cents worth. But then, who the heck am I???

tochiro
12-21-2010, 12:35 AM
have learned that in order to fight feedback [at least in my case] is to get your gain settings right and learn to "work" the mic.

So, how exactly do you set gain? I turn the gain knob up to the limit before it turns orange. It must remain green but be at max value. Is that the right method?

What do you mean by work the mic?

Thank you.

Guyute
12-21-2010, 04:11 AM
Everyone in this thread is completely missing the problem. 'Nuff said.

tochiro
12-21-2010, 04:24 AM
There might be several aspects to the problem.

Also, I don't particularly find your "Nuff said" very tactful.

BoB/335
12-21-2010, 04:26 AM
I understand. It's just that unfortunately this is not a perfect world.

Different people project differently. They have different voices, different size and shape bodies, and are in different health shape. Gain settings and differently designed microphones are all there for a reason and that reason is to "help" with all the discrepencies I just described above.

So as much as better projection is a correct answer, there ARE different variables to also consider. Just my opinion.

proy
12-21-2010, 05:39 PM
Also, I don't particularly find your "Nuff said" very tactful.

Couldn't agree more. Sheer affrontry.

BoB/335
12-21-2010, 06:01 PM
I'll say it again, you need to work on projecting. As a guy who runs an open mic, I see this all the time. Same mic, same gain and while one person will clip the channel, the person immediately after them won't get any volume at all. It's not the mic and it's not the L1, it's how much they're projecting their vocal.

Take a couple vocal lessons and then talk to the coach about mic technique.


Everyone in this thread is completely missing the problem. 'Nuff said.


To his defense he DID just state the above.

mchalebk
12-22-2010, 06:43 AM
To his defense he DID just state the above.

Yes, but it is pretty arrogant and insulting to state "Everyone in this thread is completely missing the problem. 'Nuff said." I am a big fan of taking voice lessons and highly recommend them. Learning to project better is probably the most effective way to address an issue like this. That being said, it's very presumptive to basically state that learning to project better is the only solution and that everyone else in this thread is "completely missing the problem".

No, we're not "missing the problem". There are other things that can be done to help out the OP with his issue. For instance, the advice to angle the mic upward might make a significant difference in how much gain he can get before feeding back.

BoB/335
12-22-2010, 06:52 AM
Yes, but it is pretty arrogant and insulting to state "Everyone in this thread is completely missing the problem. 'Nuff said." I am a big fan of taking voice lessons and highly recommend them. Learning to project better is probably the most effective way to address an issue like this. That being said, it's very presumptive to basically state that learning to project better is the only solution and that everyone else in this thread is "completely missing the problem".

No, we're not "missing the problem". There are other things that can be done to help out the OP with his issue. For instance, the advice to angle the mic upward might make a significant difference in how much gain he can get before feeding back.

Don't crucify the messenger. Read my post just above. My point is that there have been no others that have commented on the possibility that people need to learn to project more. It is a valid point that has been pretty much ignored in this thread even after it has been brought up. I'm thinking if I made a valid point about anything and then the discussion goes on as if I hadn't said anything it might make me feel as if I might like to write "enough said".
It's almost the way medicine is practiced. All of these "remedies" that don't address the real cause.