Rerranging...altering songs..making them more than they are..

[stuartb]

It needs to be said at the outset that I play fingerstyle, and even though I am still a hackish intermediate player, I do work on many somewhat challenging pieces that have my left hand shifting across the fingerboard from 1st to 14th fret, and I seldom end up playing the usual chord culprits, within fingerstyle arrangements.

I play old timey music, country blues, and celtic primarily. I don't tend to play popular music, with the exception of that wonderful arrangement of Waltzing Matilda recorded by Larry Pattis, with great tab edit work by Mmmaak (that one I didn't touch - amazing arrangement).

This question is likely directed at fingerstyle players, though some who use a pick may also feel it applies to them.

I have a tendency to take a song and work (rewrite sections) the arrangement. Not all songs, but definitely some. It is still the original arrangement, but some relatively significant changes can take place.

In most cases, I am far more satisfied with the final arrangement, though admitedly, from time to time I get stuck for months, because I dislike an entire section of the song. So sometimes the changes are minor, sometimes major. I love it when I don't have to change anything, like with Derek Coombs enormously challenging arrangement of Freight Train, or Fret Killr's incredible finger pickin country blues song, or Waltzing Matilda, as mentioned above, but I'd say 60% of the songs I alter.

What is your experience with altering the music, or otherwise reworking the notes. How has it impacted your playing. In your view, are you doing the original arrangement an injustice by reworking the notes.

best,

Stuart

[rmyAddison]

I mostly do originals but play a few covers to give folks something to relate to in my sets.

I never try to exact copy a song, it will never be as good as the original, so I freelance. I leave just enough melody line to make it recognizable (sometimes) then it's off to the races, and I often add transition chords that aren't in the original.

The only injustise I can see would be a bad attempt at an exact cover, a rearranged song, hopefully well played, is my goal.

[Hambone]

I guess I must do that as well, because no one ever recognizes what I play.:eek:

[flip33]

I do what you do. I like to personalize my songs. Many people are OK with this, but there is a group of "note-by-note" minded people that will hate you for it.

This seems to be more true with popular songs. My theory is that they are not hearing the song; they are hearing their memory of the song. If you do something different, you have committed a heresy against the alter of recreating the past.

Take the song "Call me the Breeze". Most people will tell you its wrong unless its done exactly like Lynryd Skynryd. Google the true author of this song- JJ Cale, and listen to his version. You may be surprised.

Keep up the good work enjoying your own music!

[ewalling]

I also play fingerstyle and perhaps have the same aspirations as you songwise, Stuart; I play old blues, folk, ragtime and some celtic. I do learn a tab/score pretty much exactly as it's written with few or no changes. In fact, the only changes I tend to make are those which make the fingering slightly easier if there's a particularly nasty stretch! Maybe I copy a little too slavishly and I admire you for putting more of your own ideas into pieces.

[rick-slo]

What is your experience with altering the music, or otherwise reworking the notes. How has it impacted your playing. In your view, are you doing the original arrangement an injustice by reworking the notes.
Stuart

With fingerstyle you should always feel free to change things around to suit your ear or make things easier to play. The tab or recording you learned the song from is frozen whereas the original artist may play his songs a little differently each time (more or less depending on the song).
That said some pieces are so well thought out that each note, each inflection, counts and helps make the song. In those situations there is not much to change that does not lessen the piece in some way. Of course even then it is not inherently wrong to change things around, you just may be missing something if you have not got the song up to speed to see how it all goes before you start changing things.

[mmmaak]

That said some pieces are so well thought out that each note, each inflection, counts and helps make the song. In those situations there is not much to change that does not lessen the piece in some way.
I was just about to say something along those lines, but Rick has already stated it much better :). I'd reckon about 90% of the stuff I tab/play is left unaltered, not so much because I don't *want* to come up with something original, but because I realize it's difficult to improve upon a "master's" work if you (not referring to anyone in particular!) aren't an accomplished musician yourself.

[Glennwillow]

I like the idea of learning a song exactly as written (or recorded) because of the value in learning new tools to help me be a better player. At the same time, there is value in taking a song you like and modifying it with your own compositional ideas, putting your own stamp on it. I go both directions. And about half the time I simply make up my own music, just for the fun of it.

It's all an adventure...

- Glenn

[RRuskin]

............................
I have a tendency to take a song and work (rewrite sections) the arrangement. Not all songs, but definitely some. It is still the original arrangement, but some relatively significant changes can take place.

In most cases, I am far more satisfied with the final arrangement, though admitedly, from time to time I get stuck for months, because I dislike an entire section of the song. So sometimes the changes are minor, sometimes major. I love it when I don't have to change anything, like with Derek Coombs enormously challenging arrangement of Freight Train, or Fret Killr's incredible finger pickin country blues song, or Waltzing Matilda, as mentioned above, but I'd say 60% of the songs I alter.

What is your experience with altering the music, or otherwise reworking the notes. How has it impacted your playing. In your view, are you doing the original arrangement an injustice by reworking the notes.

best,

Stuart


You can do anything you want with any piece of music. However, there is a distinction to be made between changes made that suit your musical tastes and those representing your limitations as a player. This is an observation and not meant to be a knock. Whatever satisfies you is the bottom line. There are those that prefer to learn a given piece completely so as to use it as a springboard to their own personalized version.

[Howard Emerson]

You can do anything you want with any piece of music. However, there is a distinction to be made between changes made that suit your musical tastes and those representing your limitations as a player. This is an observation and not meant to be a knock. Whatever satisfies you is the bottom line. There are those that prefer to learn a given piece completely so as to use it as a springboard to their own personalized version.

Rick,
Nail hit on head.

Hope your back is feeling better.

HE

[RRuskin]

Rick,
Nail hit on head.

Hope your back is feeling better.

HE

Thanks. It is but ever so slowly.

[JoeNewbie]

In my opinion, it all depends on the type of music.

If you play stuff like Stevie Ray Vaughan, the entire song is a big long solo and there's no point (in my opinion) in playing it exactly like the recorded version.

The same applies if you're playing a song that primarily consists of a melody line backed by a few chords (e.g. Bob Dylan).

However, some songs deserve more "note for note" attention than others. I think of people like Tommy Emmanuel, Joe Pass or Tuck Andress, whose arrangements and compositions are so complex and rich that you'd be hard pressed to improve their version. And if your arrangements were indeed better than the originals, you'd be known worldwide as a high caliber guitar player.

When it comes to the complex arrangements, I typically learn the original version note for note first -- and then I add my own flavour to it, but only after I feel comfortable with the original arrangement.

[Doug Young]

It seems to me, if you're taking others arrangements and modifying them to your taste, that you might want to consider making your own arrangements from scratch. Then they'd truly be yours, instead of a modified version of someone else's. That can be very gratifying.

Usually, if I'm going to put the time in to learn someone else's arrangement, then I'm either 1) really knocked out by it, in which case, I want to play it exactly the way it is, or 2) want to learn a technique from it, in which case I want to learn it exactly as-is. If it's just the tune I like, maybe a traditional tune, or a pop tune, then it's much more interesting to me to make up my own arrangement.

[ljguitar]

...What is your experience with altering the music, or otherwise reworking the notes. How has it impacted your playing. In your view, are you doing the original arrangement an injustice by reworking the notes.
Hi Stuart...
I don't derive as much satisfaction from knocking off someone else's arrangement as I do from developing my own arrangement - even if the ''original'' is more clever or complex.

I don't think enough people who we play for are familiar with fingerstyle arrangements other have done of the pieces I arrange - or if there even are arrangements others have done...so how could I being committing an injustice?

It impacts my playing in that it has helped develop my ear, my techniques and my arrangements all for the better.

Furthermore - I have arrangements which began as simple ''hack out the melody over some chords'' several years ago which are much nicer and flow better now, and I seldom really ever finish an arrangement...they just keep growing and I keep tweaking...because I would get bored playing my own arrangements note-for-note forever and a day...

[stuartb]

thanks to all those who responded, great answers and I appreciate your time. Will respond to a few points by quoting.

best,

Stuart

[stuartb]

I also play fingerstyle and perhaps have the same aspirations as you songwise, Stuart; I play old blues, folk, ragtime and some celtic. I do learn a tab/score pretty much exactly as it's written with few or no changes. In fact, the only changes I tend to make are those which make the fingering slightly easier if there's a particularly nasty stretch! Maybe I copy a little too slavishly and I admire you for putting more of your own ideas into pieces.

ewalling, thanks,

post a link to a fav bluegrass, I'd love to get into fingerpicking that resembles a banjo type of style.

Stuart

[stuartb]

With fingerstyle you should always feel free to change things around to suit your ear or make things easier to play. The tab or recording you learned the song from is frozen whereas the original artist may play his songs a little differently each time (more or less depending on the song).
That said some pieces are so well thought out that each note, each inflection, counts and helps make the song. In those situations there is not much to change that does not lessen the piece in some way. Of course even then it is not inherently wrong to change things around, you just may be missing something if you have not got the song up to speed to see how it all goes before you start changing things.

that's a good point, re missing something, though it takes me so long to learn a song that I do tend to make rash judements.

Stuart

[stuartb]

You can do anything you want with any piece of music. However, there is a distinction to be made between changes made that suit your musical tastes and those representing your limitations as a player. This is an observation and not meant to be a knock. Whatever satisfies you is the bottom line. There are those that prefer to learn a given piece completely so as to use it as a springboard to their own personalized version.

Using the song as a springboard, i.e. learning it, then changing it, and knowing both versions, would, take far too much time unfortunately). Though I don't make changes to simplify, always because it sounds better to these ears,

thanks for your post,

best,

Stuart

[stuartb]

In my opinion, it all depends on the type of music.

If you play stuff like Stevie Ray Vaughan, the entire song is a big long solo and there's no point (in my opinion) in playing it exactly like the recorded version.

The same applies if you're playing a song that primarily consists of a melody line backed by a few chords (e.g. Bob Dylan).

However, some songs deserve more "note for note" attention than others. I think of people like Tommy Emmanuel, Joe Pass or Tuck Andress, whose arrangements and compositions are so complex and rich that you'd be hard pressed to improve their version. And if your arrangements were indeed better than the originals, you'd be known worldwide as a high caliber guitar player.

When it comes to the complex arrangements, I typically learn the original version note for note first -- and then I add my own flavour to it, but only after I feel comfortable with the original arrangement.


Good points, and much of what you say I fully agree with, though learning note for note takes too much time if the song feels like it should be done a different way.

I realize, as also pointed out above, it's difficult to understand intent, or how the song would sound, if done correctly using the original version unless you go through that process. A risk I must take due to constraints on time and length of time it takes to learn a song.

best,

Stuart

[stuartb]

It seems to me, if you're taking others arrangements and modifying them to your taste, that you might want to consider making your own arrangements from scratch. Then they'd truly be yours, instead of a modified version of someone else's. That can be very gratifying.

Usually, if I'm going to put the time in to learn someone else's arrangement, then I'm either 1) really knocked out by it, in which case, I want to play it exactly the way it is, or 2) want to learn a technique from it, in which case I want to learn it exactly as-is. If it's just the tune I like, maybe a traditional tune, or a pop tune, then it's much more interesting to me to make up my own arrangement.

Good points Doug, interesting to note that I do not change a single note with respect to one of your songs that I'm learning. Cat Dance. But it seems to work, exactly how it was written.

I do write, but most of it comes in dribs and drabs. I think I still need to progress in order to find my way writing songs. I wrote my first simple song recently and it's not bad. I'll work on it to make it a little more complex as it is quite simple. Most songs I learn because I have a passion about the song when I hear it recorded. Or because there are combinations of notes used than intrigue.

thanks,

Stuart

[stuartb]

Hi Stuart...
I don't derive as much satisfaction from knocking off someone else's arrangement as I do from developing my own arrangement - even if the ''original'' is more clever or complex.

I don't think enough people who we play for are familiar with fingerstyle arrangements other have done of the pieces I arrange - or if there even are arrangements others have done...so how could I being committing an injustice?

It impacts my playing in that it has helped develop my ear, my techniques and my arrangements all for the better.

Furthermore - I have arrangements which began as simple ''hack out the melody over some chords'' several years ago which are much nicer and flow better now, and I seldom really ever finish an arrangement...they just keep growing and I keep tweaking...because I would get bored playing my own arrangements note-for-note forever and a day...



I do find many arrangments wonderful and don't seem to feel the need. Others I feel quite differently about. I like your last point particularly Larry - the evolution of a written song.

thanks,

Stuart

[crikey]

I'm all for making it yours as long as (as some have alluded to) it's at least as interesting as the original. I cringe when I see guitarists hacking their way through what should otherwise be interesting pieces just to kill time/increase their song list.

[JoeNewbie]

One important thing to consider is the reason why you learn these songs.

If you're a hired gun and need to learn a bunch of songs for an upcoming gig then you are pressed by time to learn them quickly.

On the other hand, you bring up an interesting point in saying that learning something note-for-note takes more time. While your statement is certainly true, there are many rewards to learning a master's arrangement as you add a bunch of new techniques and voicings that you would not use on your own arrangement.

I think a healthy balance is best. Playing my own arrangements of certain songs is fun but if I always do that my vocabulary would always remain the same. I find the most technically sound players are those who can do both.

[220volt]

I do both. Sometimes I will use my own touch but sometimes I want to play it not by note. I don't think limiting yourself in anything is helpful.
If you like see my youtube videos for some examples. For example: Halloween Theme I've played note by note like original while Windy and Warm and Freight Train are with my little touches. Not much but just to give it a unique signature.

Just don't get into that crowd that changes challenging passages just so they can play it easier, and then they trick themselves into believing that it even sounds better. I think that is the worst thing you can do as a guitar player. You will never progress.

[Doug Young]

Good points Doug, interesting to note that I do not change a single note with respect to one of your songs that I'm learning. Cat Dance. But it seems to work, exactly how it was written.

... Or because there are combinations of notes used than intrigue.



If I recall correctly, Cat Dance was inspired by a John Renbourn tune. I didn't really like the tune enough to learn it, but there was something about a few of the "combinations of notes" that caught my ear, and I shut off his tune and started writing my own. Pretty common occurrence, I think, where someone hears something in another tune that sparks their interest, maybe a little countermelody, or a few notes in the middle of a bach piece, and use that as an initial motif. I sometimes turn on the radio, listening to whatever, and turn it off in the middle of a song. The groove, or some aspect of the tune will stay in my mind, and I can start humming my own melody that is somehow related. Like continuing a conversation that the tune started. Sometimes it turns into my own tune, that ends up sounding nothing like the tune on the radio.

I'm just tossing these ideas out there as suggestions for different ways to channel your creative impulses.

[FLDavid]

One has to "learn the song" in order to play the song
After all, you're playing (for example) "Michelle," not "a song by The Beatles"
Unless Paul McCartney is reading this post, it's never going to be "one-hundred percent faithful to the original," anyway

. . .my $0.02

[stuartb]

One important thing to consider is the reason why you learn these songs.

If you're a hired gun and need to learn a bunch of songs for an upcoming gig then you are pressed by time to learn them quickly.

On the other hand, you bring up an interesting point in saying that learning something note-for-note takes more time. While your statement is certainly true, there are many rewards to learning a master's arrangement as you add a bunch of new techniques and voicings that you would not use on your own arrangement.

I think a healthy balance is best. Playing my own arrangements of certain songs is fun but if I always do that my vocabulary would always remain the same. I find the most technically sound players are those who can do both.


Joe,

I look forward to writing more of my own songs. I think I must work on the neck a little more so that it will come a little easier. The more work I do, the more writing music comes to me. Working on triads to help in this regard. Appreciate your thoughts.

Stuart

[LJS]

Hello Stuart,

Trained as a jazz guitarist, chord-melody has been my instinctive way to approach a song. I get into a rut I suppose because I want to voice the melody at least two ways, using higher third of chord inversions and then creating a lower version of the same. I am really happy when I "discover" a chord, ie play something that I haven't learned as a jazz chord inversion. To me it's remarkable how some fingerstyle soloists come up with tunings that seem to fit songs perfectly - an example is the version of "Moon River" on the Pink Guitar album by Ed Gerhard or Pete Hutlinger's Stevie Wonder repertoire of songs with funky basslines both watchable on Youtube. LJS

[stratokatsu]

Just from personal experience... all this about playing to support singing.

My level of abilities doesn't allow me to play too many songs exactly as the original performer did. I can put over some songs OK regardless, but anything with any sort of riff, not even something iconic, means my version is going to be a bit lacking.

Thus, a lot of songs tend to take on my personality in the way they are done, for better or worse.

Something Tadmania suggested I try is to add a finger or remove a finger from the cowboy chords I know and see how they sound in the midst of the song. Sometimes it works and sometimes I have a hard time getting along with the dissonance. Sometimes the dissonance leads me into doing a small variation on the melody, further putting my personality into the song.

Those are the ones I find myself liking more and more. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I keep reminding myself that I don't have to change EVERY song.

[stuartb]

I do both. Sometimes I will use my own touch but sometimes I want to play it not by note. I don't think limiting yourself in anything is helpful.
If you like see my youtube videos for some examples. For example: Halloween Theme I've played note by note like original while Windy and Warm and Freight Train are with my little touches. Not much but just to give it a unique signature.

Just don't get into that crowd that changes challenging passages just so they can play it easier, and then they trick themselves into believing that it even sounds better. I think that is the worst thing you can do as a guitar player. You will never progress.

thanks 220,

No, i have a tendency to try songs that are too hard for myself, and my changes have little to do with difficult or easy. Very nice playing. That guitar has a wonderful dry edge.

Stuart