Does It Really Make Any Difference What Fingers You Use On Finger Style Patterns?

[denny1948golf]

I was working on different finger style patterns and started with the alternate thumb, using the thumb for 6th, 5th and 4th string and the index/3rd, middle/2nd and ring/1st. As in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Em52Q3lW60&feature=related

Then I started working on another finger style lesson that has me using different fingers for different strings like you see in this tab exercise: http://www.guitarnick.com/learn_fingerstyle_technique_in_8_steps_-_step_6.html

It is so much easier to use an alternating thumb on this Tab Exercise than the fingers it calls for. Instead of using "P, M, I, A" as it calls for, I would use "T, I, T, M".

Does it make any difference? I'm so much smoother with the alternating thumb. But, if learning the patterns the other way will make me a better player or will come into play as I progress, I'll learn it their way also.

Hope I didn't muddy this question to bad.

[HHP]

The purpose of learning the traditional PIMA method is to give you the dexterity and strength to use the thumb and three fingers in a fluid manner. You will find many types of passages and ornaments you simply cannot play using TITM method, rolls for example. Lots of well known players have only used thumb and index or thumb and index/middle, they just have to limit their choices to the limits of the technique.

[ljguitar]

I was working on different finger style patterns and started with the alternate thumb, using the thumb for 6th, 5th and 4th string and the index/3rd, middle/2nd and ring/1st. As in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Em52Q3lW60&feature=related

Then I started working on another finger style lesson that has me using different fingers for different strings like you see in this tab exercise: http://www.guitarnick.com/learn_fingerstyle_technique_in_8_steps_-_step_6.html

It is so much easier to use an alternating thumb on this Tab Exercise than the fingers it calls for. Instead of using "P, M, I, A" as it calls for, I would use "T, I, T, M".

Does it make any difference? I'm so much smoother with the alternating thumb. But, if learning the patterns the other way will make me a better player or will come into play as I progress, I'll learn it their way also.

Hope I didn't muddy this question to bad.
Hi Denny...
I am amazed at what Merle did with Thumb and one finger, which Chet expanded to Thumb and two (and sometimes three) and Tommy Bresh (Merle's son) blazes through with Thumb and three. Then there's John Carlini who uses Thumb and all four...

As a teacher I think learning it both ways makes you more versatile, and gives you more options...

[Mark Stone]

Hi Denny...
I am amazed at what Merle did with Thumb and one finger, which Chet expanded to Thumb and two (and sometimes three) and Tommy Bresh (Merle's son) blazes through with Thumb and three. Then there's John Carlini who uses Thumb and all four...

As a teacher I think learning it both ways makes you more versatile, and gives you more options...

Yes, it's amazing to watch Travis play with a thumb and one finger while the other three fingers are laying down on the pick guard! Even though it looks like two fingers, it sounds like fifteen. Dang!

I think the answer to the original question depends on what your goals are. Different fingerpicking methods and patterns produce different sounds. Envision what your personal goal sound is, then research the methods used and start there. :up:

[mmmaak]

It does make a difference, not so much regarding what is possible or not, but the sound produced.

Of course, one of the goals (at least for me) is to get as uniform a tone as possible (when desired) across the fingers so that one can always be substituted for another, increasing versatility.

[Brent Hutto]

I've heard some of John Carlini's arrangements where I'm not sure a thumb and four would even be enough.

[ljguitar]

I've heard some of John Carlini's arrangements where I'm not sure a thumb and four would even be enough.
Hi Brent...
Have you seen any of his DVDs? He makes such ''good'' chord voicing choices...

[Brent Hutto]

Hi Brent...
Have you seen any of his DVDs? He makes such ''good'' chord voicing choices...



I have not, sounds like a potential Christmas-list item though. He's not really an old guy but he sure has been around a long time and worked with a lot of famous people.

One of the three songs I'm working on right now is a beginner's chord melody arrangement of his. There's just a couple of transitions I can't do smoothly and I need to get the whole thing moving along but I think I'll get it within a few more weeks. The tune is Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming which is not familiar to me. But it sings most sweetly while using only a couple of difficult chord grips. It has the advantage of being a very slow song with lots of room for rubato so I at least have a prayer of faking my way through it.

About 99% of Carlini's stuff is way above my pay grade. But I just love the sound of it.

[denny1948golf]

Thanks for the replies. I was pretty sure that learning both ways was better. Especially in the long run. I want to build independence and versatility with finger style. I'm finding out that it's not hard to learn and play patterns, but it is difficult to switch them around on the fly (practice tabs). Learning different patterns sure keep my interest up.

[ljguitar]

I have not, sounds like a potential Christmas-list item though. He's not really an old guy but he sure has been around a long time and worked with a lot of famous people.

One of the three songs I'm working on right now is a beginner's chord melody arrangement of his. There's just a couple of transitions I can't do smoothly and I need to get the whole thing moving along but I think I'll get it within a few more weeks. The tune is Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming which is not familiar to me. But it sings most sweetly while using only a couple of difficult chord grips. It has the advantage of being a very slow song with lots of room for rubato so I at least have a prayer of faking my way through it.

About 99% of Carlini's stuff is way above my pay grade. But I just love the sound of it.
Hi Brent...
John Carlini is an amazing player who can flat pick, hybrid pick and finger pick all with the same apparent ease and they all sound great.

Clean, tasty player...

[mmmaak]

About 99% of Carlini's stuff is way above my pay grade. But I just love the sound of it.
Which are you referring to, Brent?

I've seen this "normal" price DVD at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Chord-Solo-Guitar-Vol-Carlini/dp/B00006L2ZW

though apparently some people are asking $168 for it :eek:

Is it the 1%, or are there sellers trying to make a quick (big) buck?

[Laird_Williams]

I was working on different finger style patterns and started with the alternate thumb, using the thumb for 6th, 5th and 4th string and the index/3rd, middle/2nd and ring/1st. As in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Em52Q3lW60&feature=related

Then I started working on another finger style lesson that has me using different fingers for different strings like you see in this tab exercise: http://www.guitarnick.com/learn_fingerstyle_technique_in_8_steps_-_step_6.html

It is so much easier to use an alternating thumb on this Tab Exercise than the fingers it calls for. Instead of using "P, M, I, A" as it calls for, I would use "T, I, T, M".

Does it make any difference? I'm so much smoother with the alternating thumb. But, if learning the patterns the other way will make me a better player or will come into play as I progress, I'll learn it their way also.

Hope I didn't muddy this question to bad.

I'll join the chorus and say "learn both" too.

Once you have PMIA down, LISTEN to how it sounds different from its alternating-thumb first cousin. Notice that the latter, if your technique is good, has a far more pronounced, driving feel with the alternating bass. This is mellowed out significantly in the PMIA version. Learn both, and you have the option of choosing how you sound by choosing which version to use.

[stratokatsu]

I thought the idea behind some specific finger plucking a specific string more often had to do with ease of play and ease of movement to the next note???

[Brent Hutto]

Which are you referring to, Brent?

I've seen this "normal" price DVD at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Chord-Solo-Guitar-Vol-Carlini/dp/B00006L2ZW

though apparently some people are asking $168 for it :eek:

Is it the 1%, or are there sellers trying to make a quick (big) buck?

Sorry about that mmmaak. Your writing of English is so impeccable that I often forget that certain idioms might be outside your experience. The saying "above my pay grade" connotes something way too difficult or complicated for me to comprehend. Sort of like saying "I don't know, you'd better talk to my Supervisor about that one". Not that I can't afford to buy it.

Amazon does tend to get those ridiculous prices attached to out-of-print media, though. I doubt they ever sell much. A while back I was looking for a certain book of fine-art prints, the portfolio of an obscure Mexican artist who is recently deceased. I found copies of that out-of-print volume ranging from around $15 to around $300 for exactly the same edition. I bought the $15 one!

[Brent Hutto]

I thought the idea behind some specific finger plucking a specific string more often had to do with ease of play and ease of movement to the next note???

I think there are two concepts which get conflated in these discussions. There are certain idiomatic patterns which are common enough that it makes sense to practice them in isolation or in etudes/studies purely as technical exercises. In other words to develop technique.

But just because those patterns are common and useful enough to merit dedicated practice, one should not conclude that incorporating those into any given piece of music is de facto preferable to the use of some other, non-standard, finger pattern. Ones choice of fingers for each note in a piece should first and always serve the music (subject to physical limitations).

[wcap]

I guess my response here will be a bit redundant, but I also agree that learning to pick in multiple ways is going to serve you well in the long run. There will be pieces where a thumb and two fingers will just not be enough, or where the fingerings will be much smoother (or, has been noted, possibly more rhythmic) done one way rather than another.

I came to guitar from a banjo background. This was great background for playing fingerstyle guitar in that I was very comfortable with being very adaptable to all sorts of picking patterns, and can adjust my picking patterns pretty easily on the fly. But banjo players tend to just use their thumbs and two fingers, and when I ran into guitar pieces that required a dexterous ring finger I felt like I was starting out from scratch! i had never expected anything much from my ring finger before, and it was an uphill climb for awhile. But now my ring finger is almost (but not quite) interchangeable with my index and middle fingers for most picking situations.

Incidentally, getting my ring finger to pull its own weight took me at least a year or two, playing on average maybe an hour a day, and this was building off of 30 years of experience playing banjo. I'm not saying this to be depressing, but rather to encourage you to be persistent and not give up. It will take a lot of time, and it might seem like you never will get to the point of having the dexterity with your right hand that you want, but with stubborn persistence you will almost certainly get there.

A few examples of pieces where I find the ring finger indispensable are Classical Gas, and Recuerdos de la Alhambra. Recuerdos is where I really had to tackle and conquer the challenge of making the ring finger as useful as any other finger - you can't play this piece without the ring finger.

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLHR8zaEsA8

No, that is not me playing in that video! And I play it on a normal 6 string guitar, not on a crazy 10 string guitar (I think I'm playing exactly the same notes though).

And wow, hearing this guy play this is making me feel pretty inadequate! I play it relatively well when I'm in practice, but I don't play it as fast or as smoothly! Its good to watch videos like this - it reminds me of how far I have to go!

(I play it closer to this speed, though she is playing it better than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oScByhA15g0&feature=related - it took me a year of looking at this piece and saying "Yeah, right, like I'm really going to be able to do that" and attempting it with little success, followed by a year after the tremo started to actually work for me before I got to being able to play this at all well - I certainly played it at least 1000 time before I started to feel I had it down)


By the way, after you have played fingerstyle for awhile, and have learned a variety of pieces, the right hand picking patterns will start to flow much more effortlessly. It might take some years, and lots and lots of playing, but before you know it, you will easily adapt your right hand picking to the situation at hand.

[wcap]

Also, if you want to get into hybrid picking at some point (something I'm not very good at), you are going to want to have that ring finger used to being a fully functional member of the picking team!

[Billy Memphis]

One thing I have noticed is that if you use alternating thumb more than I,M,A, the thumb will make a heavier atack on the string due to the fact that it is a heavy digit and it is always a downstroke. (almost anyway)
I think you should definitely try to learn it both ways because when you get to the point of playing a triplet on one string as in Malaguena, you will be glad you did. It is impossible to play a bass line with your thumb and a triplet on the upper strings with only your thumb and first one or two fingers. At least I think it is.

[Laird_Williams]

I think there are two concepts which get conflated in these discussions. There are certain idiomatic patterns which are common enough that it makes sense to practice them in isolation or in etudes/studies purely as technical exercises. In other words to develop technique.

But just because those patterns are common and useful enough to merit dedicated practice, one should not conclude that incorporating those into any given piece of music is de facto preferable to the use of some other, non-standard, finger pattern. Ones choice of fingers for each note in a piece should first and always serve the music (subject to physical limitations).

Actually, that is the point that many of us are trying to make - that different fingerings will sound different, and one fingering may sound right for one piece of music and a different fingering may sound right for another. Hence, it is advantageous to learn (and learn to apply) as many different variations as time will permit.

It's hard to argue that that's failing to "serve the music".

[anton]

I think its good to learn using the P I M A right hand pattern. Like was said, alot of players have used just thumb and index, or thumb and middle finger, but obviously it limits what you can play, and how many notes you can play at once.

[noahclem]

Actually, that is the point that many of us are trying to make - that different fingerings will sound different, and one fingering may sound right for one piece of music and a different fingering may sound right for another. Hence, it is advantageous to learn (and learn to apply) as many different variations as time will permit.

It's hard to argue that that's failing to "serve the music".

Plus one on the above. A lot of the old blues guys will do only thumb and index like Travis did, and it certainly sounds different than thumb plus two or three (compare Keb Mo or Kelly Joe Phelps to Mississippi John Hurt or Lightin Hopkins). I wish I could do justice to one style, let alone multiples.:(