How do you approach song arrangement in a multiple guitar scenario

[pdks]

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In a few weeks time, I'll be hooking up with a band I know reasonably well to play a set of my material at a good sized gig. There are already two guitarists in the band, so I make three (plus a pedal steel player ...but let's leave him out of this unless you've got some suggestions there too!). One guy is strictly acoustic. The other guitarist and I play both electric and acoustic. Add a bass and drums and that's the band.

I've found that multiple guitarists playing the same chord patterns can sound somewhat flat, or unidimensional.

Any suggestions on how to avoid this? In other words, any advice on arranging a song with multiple guitars?


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[DHM1951]

I usually end up telling the other guitar player in my band to quit noodling over everything and stepping all over what Im playing...he gets all cow eyed and says.."well I'm the lead guitar, right???".... in our country-cosmic cowboy stuff where I play lead and often want him to lay down a nice steady rhythm (Like Glen Frey on Peaceful Easy Feeling) he likes to thow in a randon G-run...drives me nuts.....

Seriously.. with two, or three guitars, it takes some forthought to avoid stepping all over each other..which makes things clutter and muddy real fast...a couple of basic rules..never play in the same position..if one guy is playing cowboy chords, the other should play higher on the neck...you only need so many open strings ringing at a time...also use partial chords...the Grant Green style comp chords, or diads or triads...work better than full barre chords..sometimes even single note lines will work...sometimes if one arrpegiates a chord it will contrast from the other parts...

Define the parts to be played..For instance, one guy does the dum-ta-dada chuck berry thing on the EAD strings...the other does quick chord chops on the top 3 strings...alter the rhythm pattern..one guy hits at the 1 and 3, the other hits the 2 and 4...one guitar uses a bassy tone setting, the other a bright treble setting...finger picking or slide for one of the parts...tremelo or phase shifter on one guitar...this needs to be a definate part of arranging the tune..and rarely does it happen all by itself...sometimes using a 12 string..or nashville tuning..or even an open tuning can help with the separation...use a mandolin sometimes..its not hard to learn some basic chords and you need not be David Grisman...

Listen to recordings.....note how they are put together..recordings with good separation are particularly helpful...like the Stones...or the David Crosby era Byrds....or any one of a number of 2-3 guitar bands...also..listen to each other...I think thats the deal with my bandmate because he doesnt seem to hear what he's doing in relation to what Im doing...

Also..theres no rule that says everyone needs to play all the time...one of you can lay back for part, or all the tune...sometimes spares is good and you can do alot with dynamics by having players step in and out of the mix

[Bob Womack]

Been there, done that, got the bruises. Wish I had had more humility.

My suggestions? Buy copies of the Lynyrd Skynyrd Freebird Movie DVD, the Eagles Hell Freezes Over and Farewell I and study your buns off. There's a lot more discipline on those stages than you might think. Then think of each song as a jigsaw puzzle and try to figure how to create pieces that fit together. Here are some suggestions for cutting your pieces: Inversion, arpeggiation, rhythmic opposition, counterpoint, timbre, and surprise of surprises, the humble volume control.

Inversion - three guys doing cowboy chords = sludge. Work out ways to work up the neck from each other.
Arpeggiation - While one of you is flogging a guitar within an inch of its life in root position, the other(s) can learn the meaning of "up the neck."
Rhythmic Opposition - there is no reason on God's green that you should all be "bangin on the fours." Man 1 strums on the downbeats, man 2 strums on the upbeats.
Counterpoint - write single line leads for two of you that occasionally resolve to chords or intervals relative to the song's motion.
Timbre - Do you really think one person in each band only liked Strats and another only liked Les Pauls? No, you can generate harmonic interest and avoid sludge by mixing timbres. Also, have different players use different amounts of distortion for harmonic interest and to banish sludge.
Volume control - ie. close it, all the way, and mime. It takes a bunch of humility to do it, but simplifies the picture. In the Baroque world, they controlled dynamics by adding and subtracting instruments. You can too. Off on verses, on for choruses, for example. Humility. The mystery is great.

Have fun.... and discipline!

Bob

[Glennwillow]

Terrific advice above. I have very little to add, except that it takes planning. Great arrangements don't just happen.

Another good example of how to blend a bunch of people is to watch the DVD of Sting in Italy called "All This Time" -- http://www.amazon.com/Sting-All-This-Time/dp/B00005RFTS/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1254608560&sr=1-6. These guys are all first class players and every one of them has their ego in check.

Good luck with this -- it sounds like a challenge but it could be very rewarding...

- Glenn

[Michael Watts]

Been there, done that, got the bruises. Wish I had had more humility.

My suggestions? Buy copies of the Lynyrd Skynyrd Freebird Movie DVD, the Eagles Hell Freezes Over and Farewell I and study your buns off. There's a lot more discipline on those stages than you might think. Then think of each song as a jigsaw puzzle and try to figure how to create pieces that fit together. Here are some suggestions for cutting your pieces: Inversion, arpeggiation, rhythmic opposition, counterpoint, timbre, and surprise of surprises, the humble volume control.

Inversion - three guys doing cowboy chords = sludge. Work out ways to work up the neck from each other.
Arpeggiation - While one of you is flogging a guitar within an inch of its life in root position, the other(s) can learn the meaning of "up the neck."
Rhythmic Opposition - there is no reason on God's green that you should all be "bangin on the fours." Man 1 strums on the downbeats, man 2 strums on the upbeats.
Counterpoint - write single line leads for two of you that occasionally resolve to chords or intervals relative to the song's motion.
Timbre - Do you really think one person in each band only liked Strats and another only liked Les Pauls? No, you can generate harmonic interest and avoid sludge by mixing timbres. Also, have different players use different amounts of distortion for harmonic interest and to banish sludge.
Volume control - ie. close it, all the way, and mime. It takes a bunch of humility to do it, but simplifies the picture. In the Baroque world, they controlled dynamics by adding and subtracting instruments. You can too. Off on verses, on for choruses, for example. Humility. The mystery is great.

Have fun.... and discipline!

Bob

That's pretty much it covered.

"Don't just play something, stand there."
- Miles Davis

[mellowman]

Great suggestions here. One more source of inspiration for me is the Allman Brothers. Dickie and Duane did a pretty good job sharing. One other idea is to work out some pre-planned lead parts with two guitars doubling the lead or playing harmony. Again, the Allmans are a great example.

[ljguitar]

...Any suggestions on how to avoid this? In other words, any advice on arranging a song with multiple guitars?
Hi pdks...
I love playing backing parts and multi-guitar scenarios.

I watch where others are playing and play high on the fingerboard if they are low, or vice versa. I play smooth if they are playing choppy (rhythmic) and rhythmic if they are playing smooth (fingerstyled arpeggios, & runs or strummed 3 note inversions).

I tell my students to pretend they are on the other end of a teeter-totter and look for opportunities to play opposite styles when playing in multi-guitar settings...

I play a lot of inversions, and frequently capo to put my voicings into different keys. For songs in key of E major, I'll sometimes put on an Esus capo and play chords in key of D shapes. I also exploit parallel 3rds, 6ths, or 10ths.

I play harmony lines to melody (whether sung or played) and I fill with slow octave runs in quiet spaces.

Lastly, I'll tune to Dropped D for songs in keys of D maj, G maj, and E min to help fill out the bottom (depending on whether there is a bassist).

Hope this helps seed some ideas...

[Misifus]

Another way to vary the sound of two rhythm guitars, is to have one of them capo up the neck and play the chords with different shapes.

-Raf

[pdks]

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Over the years I’ve always received solid suggestions from my AGF colleagues, but this was the motherload of thoughtful, practical advice.


Thanks muchly Don, Bob, Glenn, Mike, Steve, Larry. Great stuff!

Phil

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[Huckleberry]

I often record two acoustic guitar parts for songs. I usually have one playing a standard fingerpicked pattern on the lower five strings in first position and another on the top four strings at around fifth or seventh fret. This gives plenty of space around the two guitars and gives more of a ringing sound to the whole arrangement.

[murrare]

Right now, I play in a band with 3 acoustics, and that's it... seriously. YOu can do it, but I would recommend some preliminary planning... in other words, don't just show up to the gig and expect not to be stepped on. Never play the same chord position as the other guy, have leads mapped out ahead of time, etc. Use effects, and use self control. Part of the reason our band still sounds good even with 3 acoustics is that we all exercise self control. At some points in the show, I don't play anything. At other points, I'm the only one playing, at other points, I'm doing a diad or triad, or small fills in between verse lines. DON'T play single note leads over the singer's voice- that's a no no. Always realize the song is bigger and more important than you are, and you will fit in nicely.

[gitfidl_pickr]

Three acoustic guitars, nobody reads a note, and you want to call it "arranging?" Like Nelson Riddle or Johnny Mercer right?

OK .. if you say so. Henry Mancini will be forced to sell out.

Well watch out for dotted 16th and dotted whole notes (they can throw you off), be careful about Al Segno and his brother Bob. Make sure your roots are singled up and syncopate often.

[aragorn]

Awesome stuff.

Does this warrant a "sticky"?

-brian

[geokie8]

The main thrust of all of the above is “separation.” Each instrument needs to find its own space within the sound spectrum. It’s not unlike harmony parts assigned to vocals (and backup singers aren't singing all of the time). Loss of clarity over time equals loss of interest

The fact that you’ve got players who play both acoustic and electric, as well as a slide guitar, makes me think they’re already pretty good at the principles stated above. The rest of this post really only applies if that’s an incorrect assumption. If it is:

1) Have a short speech prepared outlining the concepts above, stressing the fact that it’s not essential everyone plays all the time.

2) Have a couple of songs already arranged ahead of time which will illustrate the concepts.

3) The simplest approach is the suggestion to double the acoustic guitar with the 2nd guitar capo’d (ideally 5th fret or higher). Record yourself beforehand and then play along with your recording, experimenting with various capo’d positions. If the 2nd guitarist can’t transpose on the fly – one of my weaknesses – have music prepared in two keys.

4) Do a song with 2 electrics, but have the acoustic guitar do an interesting intro. He may drop out completely the rest of the song (or reprise his part as an outro).

5) I’m not sure how the slide fits in, but for ideas go check out Dylan’s live show. His band is set up much like yours (with keyboards thrown in for good measure). For the past couple of years, besides drums and bass, his band has been:

a) Dylan (keyboard) Never picked up a guitar.:cry:
b) Acoustic & electric
c) Lead electric guitar
d) Multi-instrumentalist (slide, fiddle, mandolin, and probably a few more I’ve forgotten).

Sounds like fun.

geokie8

[Wolf]

Also been there.
Always have one guitar in an open tuning, slide, not slide. When playing rythm, dont play full cords. And of course talk to each other so everyone knows his or hers bit. It can sound great, and it can really stink.

[pdks]

The main thrust of all of the above is “separation.” Each instrument needs to find its own space within the sound spectrum. It’s not unlike harmony parts assigned to vocals (and backup singers aren't singing all of the time). Loss of clarity over time equals loss of interest

The fact that you’ve got players who play both acoustic and electric, as well as a slide guitar, makes me think they’re already pretty good at the principles stated above. The rest of this post really only applies if that’s an incorrect assumption. If it is:

1) Have a short speech prepared outlining the concepts above, stressing the fact that it’s not essential everyone plays all the time.

2) Have a couple of songs already arranged ahead of time which will illustrate the concepts.

3) The simplest approach is the suggestion to double the acoustic guitar with the 2nd guitar capo’d (ideally 5th fret or higher). Record yourself beforehand and then play along with your recording, experimenting with various capo’d positions. If the 2nd guitarist can’t transpose on the fly – one of my weaknesses – have music prepared in two keys.

4) Do a song with 2 electrics, but have the acoustic guitar do an interesting intro. He may drop out completely the rest of the song (or reprise his part as an outro).

5) I’m not sure how the slide fits in, but for ideas go check out Dylan’s live show. His band is set up much like yours (with keyboards thrown in for good measure). For the past couple of years, besides drums and bass, his band has been:

a) Dylan (keyboard) Never picked up a guitar.:cry:
b) Acoustic & electric
c) Lead electric guitar
d) Multi-instrumentalist (slide, fiddle, mandolin, and probably a few more I’ve forgotten).

Sounds like fun.

geokie8


Some more great stuff on the topic. Thanks. I took the liberty of highlighting some of your points that really hit home.

You also hit on a strength and weakness of our little band of merry men. For the kind of music we play, the pedal steel is a wonderful luxury. But it's not a fit on every song and it's tough to ask him to sit there and not play. (although I do, sometimes) He's got keyboards in his background and it would be great if he participated as more of a 'multi-instrumentalist.' I believe the magic with an 'exotic' instrument like the slide steel is economy.


Thanks again!
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