Chord Questions

[Jeff D]

I'm playing a few songs that have a lot of barre chords in them such as G#m, F#,B,C#m. A lot of the songs I'm playing have these chords in them and I find that I start getting and fatigue after a short amount of time. I usually have to stop and stretch my hand out for a few minutes and the continue or just fight through the fatigue until I can't play anymore so I take a break. I was wondering if someone could tell me a way I could get the full sound of the barre chord without the barre if you know what I mean. I play semiclassical position while sitting with the guitar on my right leg and tilted up using the neck up. If I place the guitar on my left leg I get more hand strain. The strain is mostly in the meat between the thumb and index finger as well. Maybe I'm pressing too hard but it's hard for me to get sound coaxed out of my guitar without the pressure I'm using, or maybe that's just my delusion. I'm jsut struggling a bit right now.

Thanks for any help

Jeff

[mmmaak]

Remember to barre by using the downward "pull" of the fretting arm, rather than squeezing the muscles of the fretting hand.

How is your action, by the way?

[Jeff D]

Thanks I think that may be the problem. My action is as good as I can get it. I may be able to go down a tiny bit but if I go down any further I won't be able to strum since I already get a slight buzz when I get into my strumming. It's set up right in the middle for fingerstyle and strumming. The nut according to Frets.com is perfect. You can barely see the space between the fret and the string while pressing on the third fret as Fret.com says to do. I get the same fatigue when capoed as well.

Thanks for the help mmmaak

I just have never played this many barre chords before. I'm changing up my style again as I was in a big fingerpicking mode for a while but I've been asked to play some praise and worship at my church so I need to get used to all the barres they do.

[mmmaak]

I just have never played this many barre chords before.
Then I guess that, like any other new and strenuous exercise, some fatigue (*pain* is a no-no) is to be expected. The muscle fibres will respond and rebuild in no time (assuming good technique) :)

[Dukester]

I would still take it into a good luthier and see what he can do for the action. Youd be surprised; its about more than measurements and adjusting truss rods, etc.

Try going to a local guitar shop and playing lots of instruments. If your hand feels the same way, then it's you, not the instrument. But if you say "hey, this seems much easier on these guitars," then it's the instrument.

The last option would be somehow transposing with a capo to get those chords to more manageable open chords, but I dont know enough about theory to tell you exactly how, and if you're singing, it would change the key a bit, I think....

[Jeff D]

Hopefully I've been playing songs with these barre chords for about 2 months now so hopefully I build up the strength. I think I'm over compensating as well. When playing fingerstyle I didn't need hardly the amount of pressure I need while strumming as I feel the strings are going to come out from under my hand when I strum. I think I'm probably pressing too hard. I don't know. I think I'll just play around after tomorrow to see if I can press it lighter. I think I discovered though that I like really fat necks compared to these little scrawny necks because the guitars I have played with thicker necks I haven't had as much a problem with barring but thing necks like my guitars I'm having trouble, maybe that's it. Yeah I need to buy another guitar. Thanks AGF.lol

[mmmaak]

Hopefully I've been playing songs with these barre chords for about 2 months now so hopefully I build up the strength.
hmmm, OK, that's longer that I assumed. Added a caveat to my previous post :lol:

[Jeff D]

Thanks Dukester. I wish i had the money to bring it into a luthier but at the moment all I have is 20 bucks in my wallet. I'm one of those poor college students people speak of. Hopefully I can get a winter job so I can get my guitar professionally set up. I don't mind messing with my saddle but the nut kind of freaks me out a bit.

I think it's partially me and partially the instrument. As I said in my above post because I was writing while you posted was that thinker necks feel better in my tiny hands then thinner necks. I think I may just need to get a job so I can buy myself a real guitar other than my ami that fits me better.

Thanks so much

Jeff

[vac4873]

Hi Jeff,

I have a couple of questions, with some possible solutions depending on the answers to the questions.

First, are you the only guitar player on the worship team? If you are, chances are very good that you really don't need to play the full barre chord, if the other players are already playing it. You can use triads and actually sound better (less muddy) as a group.

Second, if you are the only guitarist, there are a few relatively easy chords that are commonly used for the chords you mentioned - most of them extensions with some extra pitches added in, but these are very commonly used, so most listeners expect these sounds. The first and easiest chord form is based upon an E major at the seventh fret: 0-7-9-9-0-0. The following chords can be formed by moving this "formation" up and down the neck - F#m would be found at the 9th fret x-9-11-11-0-0, C#m at the 4th, B (sus) at the 2nd, G#m at the 11th, A at fret 0 (x-0-2-2-0-0). You may find the sound of them a little too "artsy", but any that you like the sound of gives you one less barre chord to deal with, and a little more rest for your hand.



Matt

[Jeff D]

Matt thanks for your reply. I'm playing in the folk group at my church but I've also been asked to lead the youth group by myself. It's these songs that I've been having trouble with mostly due to my hand. I've been playing the praise and worship songs by myself and for myself for about two months and just last week have been asked to play for the youth group.

I love those chords you mentioned but they don't fit when I'm the only one playing. I wish I could get a few more people in the group so I can play some other things to give a better sound then the basic chord but right now I'm stuck playing basics.

Thanks so much for your response, it has helped me with my folk group as I may try and start playing different parts then the norm that the other guys are playing to diversify our sound.

Thanks

Jeff

[Tuffythepug]

Jeff
I understand your situation. If you already have your guitar reasonable well set up then you probably are just straining those hand muscles and tendons to the point of discomfort. Barre chords will do that. I'm not one for passing on advice about this stuff but here's what happened to me: I had the same issues that you describe a few years ago. I was struggling with barre chords and my hand would hurt after just a song or two. I started carrying around a tennis ball and squeezing it throughout the day. It's surprising how you can do this when you are doing almost anything else you would normally be doing anyway. At work, on the phone, driving a car, I'd have the tennis ball in my right hand (I,'m a lefty) I didn't play any barre chords at all for about a month; relied on first position chords and limited my playing to about an hour a day. After a month I sat down and played barre chords cleanly and steadily for 30 minutes. That seems to be my limit if I'm playing a lot of barre chords. After 30 minutes I start to cramp up a bit. But I'm almost 60, not a college student. Can't expect miracles.

[vac4873]

I understand that your long term goal for this is to be able to play barre chords for long periods of time, but I have a couple of other solutions that you may find work out for you (or not, up to you)

First, I agree with you in that most of the chords I listed in the second paragraph of my posting won't really do well for folk style. Most of those chords fit well in contemporary worship like Chris Tomlin and Bebo Norman, but don't sound so great under traditional or folk tunes.

However, by the chords you listed, it appears that you are playing a lot of tunes in A and E, and you mentioned using a capo. One good use of a capo is to transpose the tune into a key requiring many less barre chords. For songs in the key of E, transposing the song to C and placing a capo on the 4th fret has the effect of removing many of the barre chords - C#m becomes Am, G#m becomes Em, F#m becomes Dm, etc. Transposing songs that are in A down to G and capo on the second fret has a similar effect. This works for both an individual effort and a group setting - In the group setting this also has the added benefit of "shaking some of the mud off" and can add some interesting textures to the overall sound.

The other solution may not be as practical, but depending on the size of your hand, and your own techniques, may be useful, and that is to use some alternate methods of playing the chords. I have big hands and fat fingers, so they may not be practical for some, but one of my fingerings for the standard E type barre chord (e.g. A played at the 5th fret as 5-7-7-6-5-5) can be fingered as T-R-P-M-I-I (Thumb, Ring, Pinkie, Middle, Index, Index) or possibly even T-R-R-M-I-I, leaving the pinkie to do some other stuff. May not help if you have small hands, and I think I saw that you have smaller hands. The alternate is to play abbreviated versions such as x-x-4-2-2-2 for F#m and
x-4-6-6-5-x for C#m.

Hope this helps.

Matt

[Laird_Williams]

Hi Jeff,

I have a couple of questions, with some possible solutions depending on the answers to the questions.

First, are you the only guitar player on the worship team? If you are, chances are very good that you really don't need to play the full barre chord, if the other players are already playing it. You can use triads and actually sound better (less muddy) as a group.

Second, if you are the only guitarist, there are a few relatively easy chords that are commonly used for the chords you mentioned - most of them extensions with some extra pitches added in, but these are very commonly used, so most listeners expect these sounds. The first and easiest chord form is based upon an E major at the seventh fret: 0-7-9-9-0-0. The following chords can be formed by moving this "formation" up and down the neck - F#m would be found at the 9th fret x-9-11-11-0-0, C#m at the 4th, B (sus) at the 2nd, G#m at the 11th, A at fret 0 (x-0-2-2-0-0). You may find the sound of them a little too "artsy", but any that you like the sound of gives you one less barre chord to deal with, and a little more rest for your hand.



Matt

These voicings sound very good with a lot of Praise and Worship music. Because of the droning B and E strings, you end up with a lot of suspensions and colorations (sus2, sus4, add9, and 6/9 voicings) that sound quite appropriate for this type of music. They don't work for every song, but they work for a LOT of them.

[815C]

One more tip.

When playing barre chords, try fretting with the SIDE of your index which is closest to your thumb, rather than the palm facing portion of your index finger. I find that by slightly rolling my index finger and fretting with that side of it closest to the thumb, its a bit easier and requires a bit less effort.

Give it a try and see if it helps.

[Allman_Fan]

I like the capo idea. With that method you are really not "transposing" the key of the song, just changing the shape of the chord used. The good news is that it doesn't affect the singing. The bad news is if you don't know the chord changes from memory and are looking at music while playing, it can be kinda confusing.

You should try playing bar chords standing up with the guitar slung low like Jimmy Page. Talk about carpal tunnel!

Another thing to consider is that you don't have to strum all six strings. Just shorten your strum and hit only the strings that ring true. If you are in a chord for a while you can move this area by rolling the pressure on your fretting hand. Example: in the first downbeat you hit the bottom three strings and on the next downbeat hit the G-B-E.

[mmmaak]

Jeff, how large are your hands? Are you comfortable with thumb-fretting?

I know some players such as Rick Ruskin do away with barre chords almost completely. For example, the G#m you mentioned can be fingered with thumb, ring, pinky, index, index, index (6th to 1st string) or even T,r,r,i,i,i if you have large finger pads. Insert the middle finger on the 3rd string for Fmaj-shaped chords. Lots of other variations are possible.

Now, of course I'm not suggesting that as a replacement for normal barres, but in some instances you may find them useful/easier.

[ianardo]

Remember to barre by using the downward "pull" of the fretting arm, rather than squeezing the muscles of the fretting hand.

How is your action, by the way?

I didn't know this! thanks for the tip, wouldn't this end up warping your guitar neck over time though?

[mmmaak]

I didn't know this! thanks for the tip, wouldn't this end up warping your guitar neck over time though?
I'm sorry if I worded this such that it sounded too literal. The thumb and "pinching muscles" obviously still play an important role, but the overall "feel" should be one of "weighing down" a barre. You can try this by attempting to barre without the use of your thumb. While balancing may be difficult, it should still be possible if your technique is right.

Regarding the neck, I wouldn't be too concerned since it's designed to withstand 160+ pounds of string tension after all. Of course, you wouldn't want to attempt the insane amount of neck bending that people like Monte Montgommery (sp?) do on a regular basis :D

[ianardo]

Thanks mmmak!

Had to use an online convertor there, holy moly! 70kg? that's my weight. the tension force is mainly along the neck though, it would be strong in compression, by barring without your thumb you'd probably be putting more bending force on the neck than the strings are doing - guitars should be built for it anyways I guess

[mmmaak]

the tension force is mainly along the neck though, it would be strong in compression, by barring without your thumb you'd probably be putting more bending force on the neck than the strings are doing.
You are right, though I still think a wood-rod combination will hold up to a little arm weight just fine. Don't hold me to my word, though!! :p
(I'll be sure to warn the forum if ever my Webber's neck snaps!)

[Jeff D]

I can play with my thumb quite a bit. I might have to try that. My hands aren't tiny but they aren't large. I have quite the fingerspan as I can spread my fingers so that my thumb and pinky make a 180 degree angle. Thanks everyone for ya'll input, I'm going to try these suggestions out today and tomorrow and see how it goes.

Thanks again

Jeff