Studio Monitors Help! please...

[Alexrkstr]

Hi guys... I know this is not a Home Recording forum, but I need different perspectives on this to make a decision. Hopefully LJ, BobWomack, Doug Young, and any other person that is familiar with homerecording can help me make a PRACTICAL decision. (Remember this is not choosing a GUITAR, it's monitors)

Firstly, I am not a "Pro" at home recording but I do enjoy mixing and recording a LOT <I emphasize the "not a Pro">.

My dilemma is: What monitor pair is the most practical for my purposes and my application. . Here are options:

I am moving away from Alesis M1 Actives (6.5" woofer, 1" tweeter) and have these options:
- Yamaha HS80M 8" ($800)
- JBL LSR 2328P 8 ($700)
- KRK Rockit 8 Gen 2 ($500)
- Yamaha HS50M 5" ($400)
- KRK Rockit 6 ($400)
- Behringer TRUTH B2031A ($360)
- KRK Rockit 5 ($300)
- Behringer TRUTH B2030A ($300)

I know it's a lot of options but what I want to make a point is that I am not looking for the VERY BEST, I am looking at the best "bang for the buck", I realize that the HS80M fit almost in another league with the JBLs but I am throwing them in in case the ones below completely suck.

Essentially I am looking for:
- FLATNESS above all...
- Flexibility in adjusting to the room (I live in an apartment)
- No distortion when cranked
- Same detail at high AND low levels
- Trying to stay at or below $400

[daniel1703]

You could spend $400 on a pair of headphones. After all, bang per buck wise, headphones > in ear monitors > studio monitors.

By the way, you can visit the anythingbutipod forum and get some opinions there. The dudes there are hardcore audiophiles.

[Doug Young]

The only speakers in that batch I've heard is the KRK 5's. I thought they sounded surprisingly good for the price, but I didn't have anything to compare them to, and wasn't mixing on them, which is all that really matters. My guess is that in that price range there's not going to be a lot of difference, and that includes your M1s.

What are you not getting from the M1's? The only role of a recording monitor really is to let you create a mix that sounds good on other people's speakers. Even if they sound bad themselves, as long as you can get the results, that's ok, oddly enough. Yahama's NS10s are widely used in studios, and are basically famous for being so bad that if you can make your mixes sound good on them, they're sure to sound great everywhere else :-)

In that price range, I think the idea of headphones or in-ear phones is not a bad idea, if you're looking for flat. Rather than new monitors, you might consider hanging on to the M1s and just getting a good set of phones.

Here's an interesting article Fran Guidry pointed me to some time back. Read all the machinations this guy's going thru to get a flat pair of reference ear buds, then scroll to the end to see that he's happy with just a pair of Shure EC2s, under $100.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm

[wcap]

I'm pretty new to this recording and mixing thing, but one of the things that some of the hard core recording folks in the recording subforum at TDPRI.com have told me is that earphones tend to be terrible for mixing. Their reason for saying this is that earphones create a complete separation between left and right, whereas with speakers you hear some of what is coming out of the left speaker with the right ear, and vice versa.

Currently I only have earphones, but I can certainly see the logic behind the above argument to use monitors instead.

[daniel1703]

wcap, it's not exactly a complete separation. If you have access to some charts of headphones, you will see that the manufacturers deliberately included some crossover so that 'some' sound from the left passes over to the right, vice versa.

Of course, the blending will not be as natural as it will sound on studio monitor.

Another downside of using headphones is that the soundstage will be constricted. You can't have the sound source right outside your ears and have a soundstage that spans a whole field.

but putting that aside, for the same price, headphones will provide you with sound that's a LOT better. Try looking at some brands like AKG, Beyerdynamics, Ultrasone if you've time.

I'm recommending headphones because (assuming you mix and play with your Macbook) you have to have a good DAC and amp to go along with your studio monitors/headphones. Without a good DAC and amp, studio monitors/headphones are just like big pipes connected to a small pump. You can't bring out much quality. That way you might've been equally fine with just a normal pair of speakers.

Ok too much talking. :)

[Bob Womack]

JBL is upping the bar and taking care of the comparison between headphones and small monitors. Between now and Nov. 30th, if you buy a pair of the 2328Ps, they'll send you a set of AKG240 headphones. Their rebate page is HERE (http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3&docid=1445).

I don't have any experience with any of your choices. I can tell you that we've added a pair each of their big brothers, the LSR4326Ps and the LSR4328s, here at the facility where I work. They are working out well for the engineers who use them. I consider familiarity with your speakers to be a very important factor in getting a good mix. However, I was able to walk into the control room with the LSR4328Ps last week having mixed no prior product on them, and mix a band doing a live broadcast concert with very good results. For years JBL has been building speakers that not only are pretty accurate but have a reputation of not fatiguing the ears. That's pretty important. Perhaps that has applied downwards to the 2328s?

Something to keep in mind is that mixing on speakers is always preferred over mixing on headphones unless there is simply no other alternative. The soundstage from speakers translates much better in your mixes to other speakers than that of headphones.

Bob

[Alexrkstr]

Thanks guys, I'm definitely going with speakers. I already have the Senheiser HD28 headphones but it's not good to mix with headphones. (Also the rebate kind of cancels out here... unless I resell them :) ).

I'm leaning towards the Yamaha HS50M right now because I can shape the sound for the room (mine is 12 by 12). But I wonder if they will have enough bottom end....

My questions is - is there a significant difference among the monitors to go higher up in the chain.

[Herb Hunter]

The speakers on your list are all active ones except for the JBLs which are passive. If I were considering the one's on your list, I'd choose the JBLs without hesitation but if you don't have a suitable power amplifier and the budget won't stretch far enough to buy the JBLs plus a power amp, the JBLs aren't a choice for you. In that case, I would compare the remaining choices with your Alesis M1s to see if any of them are better to a degree that would justify the cost of replacing the M1s.

One criterion you mentioned was, "no distortion when cranked". Monitoring should be done at approximately 85 dB. Since these are all near-field monitors I'd expect all of them to capable of that with adequate headroom to spare.

[Alexrkstr]

The speakers on your list are all active ones except for the JBLs which are passive. If I were considering the one's on your list, I'd choose the JBLs without hesitation but if you don't have a suitable power amplifier and the budget won't stretch far enough to buy the JBLs plus a power amp, the JBLs aren't a choice for you. In that case, I would compare the remaining choices with your Alesis M1s to see if any of them are better to a degree that would justify the cost of replacing the M1s.

One criterion you mentioned was, "no distortion when cranked". Monitoring should be done at approximately 85 dB. Since these are all near-field monitors I'd expect all of them to capable of that with adequate headroom to spare.

Thanks HH, my challenge is that I cannot compare the M1s to anything... I will take out the JBLs since I didn't know they were passive and cannot afford them.

On the cranking up comment - I know, I don't mix at high levels, I just want to be able to hear them at high levels after mixing.

[Bob Womack]

Pardon, the LSR2328Ps are powered, in fact bi-amped. The "P" stands for "powered." Look HERE (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LSR2328P) for more.

Bob

[Herb Hunter]

Pardon, the LSR2328Ps are powered, in fact bi-amped. The "P" stands for "powered." Look HERE (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LSR2328P) for more.

Bob

I'm glad you caught my mistake. I tried to retrace my searches to see where I screwed up. At first, I thought I may have omitted the, P, in the Google search field which might have inadvertently led me to a passive version but since JBL doesn't seem to make such a version, I'm not sure exactly where I went wrong. Maybe I should just go to lunch.

[Alexrkstr]

So... where does that leave us? Too many options...

I think brand-wise I am leaning toward the Yamahas and Mackies.

[Bob Womack]

Studio gear is like computer gear: There are always too many options and the moment you sink you money into any option it is out of date. The best solution is to narrow your choices as best you can and then go listen to them. Make a choice, and be satisfied that you did your best.

Bob

[Doug Young]

S The best solution is to narrow your choices as best you can and then go listen to them. Make a choice, and be satisfied that you did your best.


Bob's advice is excellent as always. The thing with monitors is that it's not always a matter of "better". Each speaker is going to sound different. You just have to find what works for you, and learn what the kind of music you're creating sounds like on them, so you can "know the speaker" and mix accordingly.

A little explanation of the headphone option a couple of us suggested. I agree with the conventional wisdom that headphones aren't a good way to mix. But, if you are budget constrained, they have some benefits. $400 doesn't really get very much in a studio monitor, but it will get you really good headphones (as an add-on, not a complete replacement, to your current monitors). The other issue is room acoustics. Even the best monitor won't let you hear correctly if your room acoustics aren't reasonable. You might be better off spending that $400 on room treatment, and suddenly your M1s may sound better than you thought they did. One supposed benefit of in-ear headphones is that they eliminate the room from the equation, which is the other thing I had in the back of my head in my first response. Few pros would recommend mixing over headphones, but in a budget home studio, it's all about compromise.

I think, as with the "do I need a new guitar" option, I'd start with identifying the problem. Not "I need better monitors", but something like "my mixes always sound too bassy on my friend's stereo" or whatever. Then look at your budget and figure out what the most effective solution within that budget is, from a new guitar to new monitors, to room treatment, to a class on mixing at the local community college (gaining access to their studio along the way...), to booking some time in a pro studio to compare results, etc.

The upgrade path is endless, there's always something better out there that costs just a little more, and the differences are pretty incremental unless you throw a lot of money at everything at once. Going from a $300 speaker to a different brand of $400 speaker will change things, just as going from an 814 to a 614 will change things. But it may not be better, just different.

[SuperB23]

I had those same Alesis M1 studio monitors and I hate them and got a lot of screwed up mixes with them. I later on bought the simple 2.1 Blue Sky EXO and I have had nothing but successful mixes with them. They are a bargain IMO!

[Doug Young]

By the way, Alex, one approach to this is to make sure whoever you buy monitors from will let you return them. Ideally, try a couple at once and send back the ones you don't like. Guitar Center, Sweetwater, etc, should all let you do returns, and might even be accommodating if you're up front with them that you want to try several with the ultimate goal of buying one. It's helpful to hear what they sound like in your room, on your music, not just in the store, playing some impressive demo CD.

[Alexrkstr]

Bob's advice is excellent as always. The thing with monitors is that it's not always a matter of "better". Each speaker is going to sound different. You just have to find what works for you, and learn what the kind of music you're creating sounds like on them, so you can "know the speaker" and mix accordingly.

I think, as with the "do I need a new guitar" option, I'd start with identifying the problem. Not "I need better monitors", but something like "my mixes always sound too bassy on my friend's stereo" or whatever. Then look at your budget and figure out what the most effective solution within that budget is, from a new guitar to new monitors, to room treatment, to a class on mixing at the local community college (gaining access to their studio along the way...), to booking some time in a pro studio to compare results, etc.

The upgrade path is endless, there's always something better out there that costs just a little more, and the differences are pretty incremental unless you throw a lot of money at everything at once. Going from a $300 speaker to a different brand of $400 speaker will change things, just as going from an 814 to a 614 will change things. But it may not be better, just different.

Two very good point Doug, my problem with my Alesis M1's is that
1) One of them is significantly less powerful than the other one and I need to max the volume to get what the second one outputs at 70%
2) The mix sound is not flat.

[Alexrkstr]

By the way, Alex, one approach to this is to make sure whoever you buy monitors from will let you return them. Ideally, try a couple at once and send back the ones you don't like. Guitar Center, Sweetwater, etc, should all let you do returns, and might even be accommodating if you're up front with them that you want to try several with the ultimate goal of buying one. It's helpful to hear what they sound like in your room, on your music, not just in the store, playing some impressive demo CD.

Yep, I plan on spending some time at GC auditioning some but ultimately I will actually buy them from Amazon with a gift card I have (that's the challenging part)

[Doug Young]

Two very good point Doug, my problem with my Alesis M1's is that
1) One of them is significantly less powerful than the other one and I need to max the volume to get what the second one outputs at 70%
2) The mix sound is not flat.

1 makes for a different story, something's broken :-) 2 is a bit harder to quantify. How do you know? These days it seems like all speakers specs say they're flat, and in reality, probably any costing less than an arm and a leg aren't. And again, if your room isn't "flat", at least in the mix position, it won't matter if the speakers are.

[solidwalnut]

Hi Alexrkstr--

When it comes to mixing music, you really need multiple monitors to make good judgements.

Since we all live in less-than-ideal mixing spaces, you just need to get to know the characteristics of what you have. It really all starts with the room.

I don't have any experience with any of the speakers on your list, but the brand I don't ever hear anything positive about is Behringer. It's not that they may not make a fine product, I don't know.

The thing is that unless they're expensive monitors, they will offer some-what unbalanced representations. I think that JBL and Yamaha probably make the better speakers on the list.

Mastering engineers listen in an almost perfect listening environment on the flattest response monitors. But since most of us don't mix there, we need to find the best spot in the room, your apartment, first. If you have the freedom to move your mixing environment around, set up your pair of speakers and then stand back and listen. Try this is a few spots around the room and see where the overall tone pleases you the most; might be the most balanced sound.

You might have to treat the room a bit if you can. If you can mix on multiple monitors, that's the way to go. Even though they say headphones are bad for mixing I have to disagree. Headphones are just like any other monitor system: you get to know them. Sure, they offer stereo separation that is not real, but you know that! Headphones, like many other speaker systems, compensate for their lack of frequency response by boosting in that range. That's all good to know!

So you gotta burn a disc and then listen back on several different systems, car stereo, boom box, home stereo and strive for balanced mix that sounds good across all of them.

Have fun with it!

Steve

[220volt]

Very knowledgeable folks here. (http://studio-central.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=768c1b46d42051f05a3ad344ac5fdca4)

[valleyguy]

Much good advice here. Some years ago I spent some time at GC and chose the Rockit 5s, though the 6s sounded better, I didn't want to spend the extra money. Didn't like the M1s

In the end you need to play a lot of music on the speakers you will use to get accustomed to the sound they produce (the Rockit 5s are low on bass and have a peak at the low mid). What is particularly important is to listen to the mixes on many different speakers, in the car, home stereo, iPod, etc. to make sure it sounds good on all those systems.e

[Alexrkstr]

Thanks for all your feedback guys. I ended up buying some Yamaha NS-10Ms off of Craigslist today :)

Now I need an amp... I will open another thread for that...

[solidwalnut]

Thanks for all your feedback guys. I ended up buying some Yamaha NS-10Ms off of Craigslist today :)

Now I need an amp... I will open another thread for that...

Nice choice on the old Yamaha's. I have 'em and love 'em. Not 'cause they sound so great but because they are so revealing in the midrange. If the mix sounds good on these dudes, then you're a step ahead...

Steve

[Alexrkstr]

Nice choice on the old Yamaha's. I have 'em and love 'em. Not 'cause they sound so great but because they are so revealing in the midrange. If the mix sounds good on these dudes, then you're a step ahead...

Steve

..... Well... I decided to sell the pair... too much of a hassle to replace the tweeter, choose and amp, and justify the $$$.... I think I will be better off with the HS80s... Too many people discouraging me from using them and they are now discontinued....

[solarix]

I will play the heretic for a home studio.

Behringer TRUTH B2031P Passive Monitors and any _decent_ amp you can find with power more than 75 watts per channel. Less than $200.00 shipped. More sound than your family or apartment neighbors will put up with and decent balance/flat as well. Add a sub, a crossover, an EQ and more power and you can rock the house.

You will find +/- reviews for the B2031P, my review would be +. I have sat in a couple of commercial studio control rooms and the Truth B2031P is nothing to look down on in a budget situation like home.

Jerry

[Alexrkstr]

I will play the heretic for a home studio.

Behringer TRUTH B2031P Passive Monitors and any _decent_ amp you can find with power more than 75 watts per channel. Less than $200.00 shipped. More sound than your family will put up with and decent balance as well. Add a sub, a crossover, an EQ and more power and you can rock the house.

You will find +/- reviews for the B2031P, my review would be +. I have sat in a couple of commercial studio control rooms and the Truth B2031P is nothing to look down on in a budget situation like home.

Jerry


Thanks Jerry. When you mention the EQ and the Rock the House... my thought derails... I was thinking more along the lines of flat and no louder than 90-95dBs to monitor.

How are the Behringers in that sense? Do they have a flat Fz response? Does it vary with volume?

[Doug Young]

Thanks Jerry. When you mention the EQ and the Rock the House... my thought derails... I was thinking more along the lines of flat and no louder than 90-95dBs to monitor.

You might want to research monitoring levels a bit. Above 85 db, you're not only endangering your hearing, but venturing into an area where what you hear is no longer flat. Your hearing actually varies in frequency response with volume.

[Alexrkstr]

You might want to research monitoring levels a bit. Above 85 db, you're not only endangering your hearing, but venturing into an area where what you hear is no longer flat. Your hearing actually varies in frequency response with volume.


Yes, I agree, I mean to say at 90-95 dB MAX, but monitor and mix at around 80dB.

[solarix]

Unless your room is perfect acoustically, you will have humps and dips caused by standing sound waves and reflections that may appear to be the monitors not being flat. I fought this with both my home theater and in my music room, that is the reason for an EQ. I prefer the Behringer Monitors and a good clean amp for music over the entire home theater setup I have using JBL Northridge series x 6, 2-15" subs and 700+ watts. The Behringers are much more transparent seeming they do not exist only the music and the sound stage. The theater is better by far for movies/surround.

If you are trying to master recordings good headphones in an apartment may be a better idea since you don't get any room effect and you do not want to EQ all your music recorded for your room. I will defer that one to the pros. I have not done that.

Jerry