Learning Technique -vs- Songs

[solarix]

Which is more useful in the long run, technique or concentrating on songs?

I have a feeling it is technique. On that thought where and how to begin on the technique part?

Jerry

[Fingerstylist]

I'd say you can't go wrong concentrating on songs. With every piece that you learn you should pick up new techniques.

[daniel1703]

i think you should go with songs. There're so many techniques to learn. And once in a while people develop new techniques. If you concentrate on techniques, you probably won't know where to stop.

In the end, you might be a master at guitar techniques but you don't know many songs, which kinda defeats the purpose of playing the guitar, no?

And like what Fingerstylist said, you'll pick up new techniques with every piece you learn. Moreover, if you stick to playing songs from a certain genre, eventually you'll pick up most of the common techniques employed in that genre.

[ljguitar]

Which is more useful in the long run, technique or concentrating on songs?
Hi Jerry...

Do I have to choose?
Can they be rated?
Can they be separated?


It's sure possible to learn technique by learning songs, and it's possible to learn techniques and then apply them to songs. I see no value in learning techniques apart from applying them to a song...

Often while working on an arrangement I find a hole in my technique, so I spend some practice time just working out the nuts and bolts, then go back to the arrangement.

Which works best for you?

[aaron1433]

Larry posts some valuable ideas. I have to counter it by saying that it is also useful to many musicians, especially improvisers, to shed some ideas/techniques/licks and then let that stuff creep into your playing.

Often, the way it comes out will surprise you, and can be really fresh and exciting.

[mmmaak]

I learn technique by learning songs :guitar:

[rcadian]

Interesting discussion... "Both," would be my one word answer...

From personal experience, I've only learned techniques from watching and listening to lots of different versions of songs that I was learning and seeing and hearing where different techniques were applied. Hey Joe is a song with a really simple chord progression, but the different techniques you can apply through it and learn from it are extraordinary.

The one thing that has stunned me since staring to learn to play the guitar is just how differently lots of people play the same song. The first song I wanted to learn to play when I knew a few chords was Wagon Wheel. The gazzilion different ways people play it on YouTube was at first totally confusing to me ("Which one was RIGHT?," I remember asking myself), but now I find the fact that there are so many different ways - and techniques - that can be applied to any single song, both inspiring and educational...


Rc

[ewalling]

I learn technique by learning songs :guitar:

Yes, that's my case, too, but really I'm less interested in the technique than the song. If I pick something up that has a wider use, well and good, but that's not my focus.

[deltoid]

Having a good foundation of proper technique will make those songs MUCH easier to learn and play. You said "in the long run", in the long run, you're better off learning proper technique, first and foremost. That's why a person in a formal (classical) training environment will practice technique and practice, and practice, and practice.
But, that's no fun, so, unless you plan on playing classical guitar in a symphony orchestra, I suppose you can learn a few songs along the way while also learning proper technique.

[susitna]

To me, there's a difference between knowing how to play a song and how to play guitar. I think already having the technique mastered makes learning the song easier. I think learning the song makes mastering technique more fun. You could waste your life philosophizing about the chicken and the egg, or you can get to work.

So I play a song to "warm up", then I do a couple exercises from technique books, and then I start working on new songs. If I get frustrated with the new song, I'll either play an old one or go back to the exercises (especially if I think I didn't do it so well earlier).

[Bern]

Which is more useful in the long run, technique or concentrating on songs?

I have a feeling it is technique. On that thought where and how to begin on the technique part?

Jerry

Everything is useful...when a time comes where you need to refer to something, you'll have it. Of course, there are basic techniques you have to conquer...after that, you're on your own.

[solarix]

Very interesting conversation here, thanks!

To me, there's a difference between knowing how to play a song and how to play guitar. I think already having the technique mastered makes learning the song easier. I think learning the song makes mastering technique more fun. You could waste your life philosophizing about the chicken and the egg, or you can get to work.

So I play a song to "warm up", then I do a couple exercises from technique books, and then I start working on new songs. If I get frustrated with the new song, I'll either play an old one or go back to the exercises (especially if I think I didn't do it so well earlier).


This was my thought process as well. I really want to learn the guitar the way an accomplished piano player KNOWS the piano.

Of course learning songs along the way or for what purpose do you know your insrtument.

[stephensmat]

I just started learning, but I plan to learn by songs. 'How to play songs you like' is not hard to find on the internet these days, and frankly, I don't plan to be the next great guitar composer, so playing songs I like, and I want to hear is rather the point for me.

[Billy Memphis]

I learn technique by learning songs :guitar:
I agree, The technique you need is in the songs. Each song has particular technique requirements that you can concentrate on as you go. Besides, technique by itself gets very boring and hard to keep going without letting your mind wander.

[wcap]

While I would agree that lack of adequate knowledge of technique (and maybe music theory) will probably hinder a developing guitar player (I have frustrating gaps, even though I have played stringed/fretted instruments for decades, and I tend to turn heads and get compliments when I try out guitars in shops), the thing is that one of the most important things to do to develop your playing ability is to play guitar A LOT. Really really a lot. Call it practicing if you wish (though that sounds less fun). I simply call it playing guitar, which is something I am compulsively obsessed with and never have enough time for. In my opinion, you have to be obsessed with it to really develop into a great player.

And the thing that really keeps me going, more than anything, is the burning desire to learn and get good at playing music that I love. This is what keeps me at it.

Like, the year it took me to master Recuerdos de la Alhambra, a Spanish classical peice that has about 1700 notes played pretty rapidly and continuously from start to finish. I had loved this piece since I was a kid, and when I finally found tablature for it and started getting it to work (which didn't happen really until a year after getting the tablature) I was totally obsessed and after I really started making progress with it I must have played it through AT LEAST 2 or 3 times every day for about another year before I really had it down to the point where I could play it through pretty cleanly - I figure I've easily played it more than 1000 times. Focusing on this piece so much actually sort of erased one or two other complicated pieces that I had previously mastered but that I did not "maintain" for awhile - very frustrating!

Anyway, I don't think I could have worked with the same intensity had I not been working on something that I really really wanted to play, and that was giving me tantalizing bits of success that kept me going. And that piece could almost be viewed as a roughly 1700 note exercise in developing right hand technique.

This being said, I really wish I could get myself motivated to sit down and learn to sight read standard notation. I work at it a little bit once in awhile, and I make some progress and realize that it really is not that hard, but the effort is great relative to the immediate feedback that I'm getting, and I tend to revert to working on some piece, either original, or from Tablature, that is really intriguing me.

Also, every so often I do pick up some new idea or technique, often almost by accident (e.g. by watching another guitar player play - something I don't do enough of) and it feels revolutionary and wonderful and transformational.

I really ought to do more with technique. Actually, I need to spend more time seeing how others arrange and construct their arrangements, accompaniments, and such, and learn some radically different uses of chords and chord voicings. I think it might take my playing to a new level.

Recently I've gotten obsessed with DADGAD tuning, so there is a whole big new world to explore here!

[solidwalnut]

Which is more useful in the long run, technique or concentrating on songs?

I have a feeling it is technique. On that thought where and how to begin on the technique part?

Jerry

Hi Jerry--

It's already been said in this thread, but I want to throw in my two cents.

I've been playing since 1970, self-taught. I think the answer to your first question is YES :D As was said by mmmaak and Billy Memphis, it's really difficult to try and separate the two. I guess a more straight answer from me would be, 'songs'. But I can't work on a song without stopping and working on the techniques that present themselves within the song. That's the beauty of it. This all teaches you to develop your ear. Hint: you never 'arrive'. You learn to play a song 'straight' and then you work on playing that same song 'modified' or with some technique. You learn what the differences are.

Sure, there are times when you want to stop and only work on a certain technique. But as has also been said, there are too many techniques to try and learn and they may or may not apply to your style of guitar playing. Let me back up.

First, learn the basics. The raw basics of music: the major scale and it's intervals. Hint: you never 'arrive'. At the same time, tackle CAGED and learn the basics of the fretboard (learn chords and chord formations). Hint: you never 'arrive'. Next consider how you're going to learn to play: pick or fingers or both. If a pick, then learn the basic pick holding techniques and learn to strum quietly. Learn to play well with a pick (or fingers).

Armed with this knowledge, marry the basics of music (the major scale and it's intervals) with the basics of the guitar neck (learn chords and formations). Now you're really developing your ear, and you're ready to really listen, listen, listen to those songs and learn what it is that they're playing!

The answer to your second question is to learn how to play cleanly and learn to play rhythm guitar well. Individual notes come from the chords. Melody loves chord tones. Technique comes from first playing a note or a chord 'straight' and then learning the difference between 'straight' and 'modified'. It's all about developing the ear.

Sorry for the long rant, but when you've been playing as long as I have it's hard to know when to shut up!

Steve

[larryb]

Which is more useful in the long run, technique or concentrating on songs?

I have a feeling it is technique. On that thought where and how to begin on the technique part?

Jerry

I think it is possible to do both simultaneously. It took me around 3 or 4 months to learn robben ford's cannonball shuffle. I had to learn it measur by measure, sometimes spending a week learnng one phrase. When i finally got the entire song memorized, I would then lay along with robben on the cd, trying to learn his phrasing, dynamics, etc. I have played it a thousand times (my wife and son can attest to that) and in the process of learning the song I picked up so many blues techniques. Now I need to spend a year taking it apart, transpsng sections, taking licks from it to play over blues jam tracks, etc. There is a lifetime of lessons in that one song.

Now I am working on another of his songs. At the same time, I spend some time each day working on various scale exercises. But I enjoy practicing the scales too. If I had ten hours a day I might be able to put a dent in it all. You just have to decide that you want it badly enough that you are willing to put in the tome even if you never reach your goal and enjoy the ride

[JeremyG]

I learn technique by learning songs :guitar:

Me three...;)

Solarix, I'm quite new to these parts (the guitar!) I'm working through some DVD's that Stefan Grossman puts out b/c I have this thing for the Blues.

The song I wanted to play comes towards the VERY END of these 3 DVD's so you can imagine my angst in wanting to get to it.

Stefan G. even said (I inquired) that it's not wholly necessary to go through the entire set in order if I didn't want to. However, I'm finding out that b/c I'm so new there are many little fingerings and techniques that I'm learning that are also incorporated/covered in a lot of the songs as they progress. I find this very useful indeed.

I might jump ahead a bit, maybe a skip a song for one I like more but the little hints etc that are covered will get a good bit of attention.

So, to answer you posted question, I'll have to say much of it lies within the songs if you have help explaining the reasons why different fingering etc. are suggested.

HTH

Jeremy....from a rookies perspective.

edit: Gads, 233 posts already. I need to play more and post less!

[JeremyG]

While I would agree that lack of adequate knowledge of technique (and maybe music theory) will probably hinder a developing guitar player (I have frustrating gaps, even though I have played stringed/fretted instruments for decades, and I tend to turn heads and get compliments when I try out guitars in shops), the thing is that one of the most important things to do to develop your playing ability is to play guitar A LOT. Really really a lot. Call it practicing if you wish (though that sounds less fun). I simply call it playing guitar, which is something I am compulsively obsessed with and never have enough time for. In my opinion, you have to be obsessed with it to really develop into a great player.

And the thing that really keeps me going, more than anything, is the burning desire to learn and get good at playing music that I love. This is what keeps me at it.

Like, the year it took me to master Recuerdos de la Alhambra, a Spanish classical peice that has about 1700 notes played pretty rapidly and continuously from start to finish. I had loved this piece since I was a kid, and when I finally found tablature for it and started getting it to work (which didn't happen really until a year after getting the tablature) I was totally obsessed and after I really started making progress with it I must have played it through AT LEAST 2 or 3 times every day for about another year before I really had it down to the point where I could play it through pretty cleanly - I figure I've easily played it more than 1000 times. Focusing on this piece so much actually sort of erased one or two other complicated pieces that I had previously mastered but that I did not "maintain" for awhile - very frustrating!

Anyway, I don't think I could have worked with the same intensity had I not been working on something that I really really wanted to play, and that was giving me tantalizing bits of success that kept me going. And that piece could almost be viewed as a roughly 1700 note exercise in developing right hand technique.

This being said, I really wish I could get myself motivated to sit down and learn to sight read standard notation. I work at it a little bit once in awhile, and I make some progress and realize that it really is not that hard, but the effort is great relative to the immediate feedback that I'm getting, and I tend to revert to working on some piece, either original, or from Tablature, that is really intriguing me.

Also, every so often I do pick up some new idea or technique, often almost by accident (e.g. by watching another guitar player play - something I don't do enough of) and it feels revolutionary and wonderful and transformational.

I really ought to do more with technique. Actually, I need to spend more time seeing how others arrange and construct their arrangements, accompaniments, and such, and learn some radically different uses of chords and chord voicings. I think it might take my playing to a new level.

Recently I've gotten obsessed with DADGAD tuning, so there is a whole big new world to explore here!


Not to take away from any other reply here (there are some good ones) but the message contained here really hit home for me.

It will make my playing" time much more pleasurable when things get tough!

Thank you.

Jeremy.

[mmmaak]

As wcap put so nicely, there's always something new to learn that has the potential to make us feel like beginners all over again. For me, at least, that's one of the reasons it *never* gets boring :up:

[wcap]

Jeremy,

Thanks for the feedback and the PM.

Of course, a few days after writing what I wrote above, I was at The Podium in Minneapolis (I see you are in Minnesota too) trying out guitars and there was a young teenage boy there with his mother. He was trying out high end (I mean, really high end) classical guitars, and his playing was simply stunning. I got talking to him a bit, and he was talking about all the scales and exercises and such that he does, and we talked about how long it takes him to learn new pieces (not terribly long). I was suitably humbled (even though my playing routinely turns heads and gets compliments when I try out guitars there), and I got thinking that maybe there really is something to all this technique and formal training stuff.

Still, if you are an adult, you often have really limited time for this sort of thing, so I guess I still sort of stand by the idea that if this guitar thing is going to happen, and you are going to progress well, you have to be working on music that is inspiring to you. Personally, that is what keeps me going at this with diligence and fervor.

(And speaking of inspiring music, I recently started working on learning to play this beautiful arrangement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW-YzEgC30s and I also recently learned this guy's lovely arrangement of Shenandoa - every time I turn around I discover other guitar players with so many wonderful ideas for arrangements and such that are so unlike anything I would have come up with myself. It is a bit overwhelming, and very humbling, but it is also really inspiring. And, as stated in the previous post, this never gets boring.)



An aside....

In the course of three afternoons in that guitar shop I encountered two young kids, maybe in the 13 - 16 year old range, who personally owned guitars that are priced up in the $6000 range. Wow! I guess these are a lot cheaper than the violins that really serious advanced violin students sometimes end up buying, but wow, all my several guitars put together don't total up to $6000, and I have some nice guitars.

[solidwalnut]

Which is more useful in the long run, technique or concentrating on songs?

I have a feeling it is technique. On that thought where and how to begin on the technique part?

Jerry

I guess I also have to tell you....

Looking back, I've really made a guitar playing career out of learning songs. Heck, I've learned way more songs than I can remember. And I find that I've learned songs for the moment...for the reason or the gig or the session.

Even as a beginning player, my goal was to learn specific songs for specific reasons. I began by playing in church (and I'm still there after all these years) but I gradually began to play for weddings, and then all sorts of gigs. As I progressed as a player and began recording and playing in studios, the goal of learning specific songs and specific parts and really breaking it down became a way of life. Breaking down tunes and working on techniques became a matter of course.

Steve

[JeremyG]

wcap,

That's a really fine piece of music you're after there. Good luck on it. Those harmonics just ring on that guitar he's holding. No cheap box, I'm sure!

I'll be making a stop into the Podium again one of these days I'm sure. It's been since approx. 1995 since I was once there last. And before that when I was a student, 1976. That trip alone cost me my student loan when I walked out with a Mossman Flint Hills model! It was worth it!

I "try" to stay away from those places, being relatively inexperienced now. The clientele like you happened into make me feel so whimpy. It's tough when a youngster is so talented and accomplished. Also it makes you grin deep inside!

Jeremy.

[Howard Emerson]

Which is more useful in the long run, technique or concentrating on songs?

I have a feeling it is technique. On that thought where and how to begin on the technique part?

Jerry

Jerry,
Stop! You're both right!

It's best, especially if you have a really good teacher, to learn whatever technique is required for a given song as you're learning it.

That way you learn to think on the fly, at the moment.

Learning any song is going to require work on tone production, timing, dynamics, phrasing, muting or not, attack, etc, etc.

So much of what you learn in any song is applicable to others down the line, and new techniques can be re-introduced into songs you've learned earlier.

Regards,
Howard
http://www.howardemerson.com/

[wcap]

....
I'll be making a stop into the Podium again one of these days I'm sure. It's been since approx. 1995 since I was once there last. And before that when I was a student, 1976. That trip alone cost me my student loan when I walked out with a Mossman Flint Hills model! It was worth it!

I "try" to stay away from those places, being relatively inexperienced now. ......
Jeremy.

Yes, shops like that are dangerous places, and I too tend to try to stay away unless I have a guitar purchase planned that I need to figure out. Choosing the right guitar can be a very difficult process, and I think the decisions you make will depend a great deal on where you are with your playing.

About 5 years ago I started to move away from my 30 year banjo obsession to a guitar obsession. I was a pretty good banjo player, but not very sophisticated with guitar. I knew I wanted a much better acoustic guitar than I had at the time, but I was not sure whether I wanted a classical guitar or a steel string as my first great guitar. I went with a classical guitar, and I think it was a great choice given the sorts of things I like to play on guitar, but the long range plan was also to get a good steel string. The choices in the realm of steel string guitars are more bewildering I think (though I did obsess about the choice of which classical guitar to get for a long time - and I'm still very happy with my choice), and I think was not really ready at that time to make that choice. I've recently been doing some serious steel string guitar shopping (and will end up with two new steel strings in less than 3 months! Yikes!). The decisions are still very difficult (especially since I like to play so many different styles), but I'm a much more experienced and competent guitar player now, and I'm in a much better position to make these decisions and to evaluate guitars now than before.

So, if you are sort of inexperienced with guitar you might not make the same choices as you would later on. Having a guitar that sounds good and plays well is really important in developing one's playing and inspiring you to keep at it I think, but you might want to consider any guitar purchase you make now as possibly being a first step toward being able to choose a guitar that is more perfectly suited to you later.

The good thing is that The Podium does not sell junk. It is a store filled (upstairs) with lovely world class instruments, but even the lower priced/modestly priced guitars downstairs are typically very nice playing, decent (or good) sounding instruments, and the staff is top notch. It is a store I would recommend without hesitation to players at any level or with any budget. The staff is amazingly helpful and tolerant of indecisive people like me, and while they are very careful to not say that one guitar or the other is the right one to buy (how can anyone know what another person is going to prefer?), they can give a lot of help and guidance to get your search for the right guitar underway.

[mktitan]

In Nick Mason's book about Pink Floyd he references the fact that none of them knew anything about reading music and proper techniques for various instruments that they were trying to play...they pretty much just played what sounded good to them. I think that he mentioned that when they would bring in session musicians they would sometimes not use what they put down b/c their use of impeccable technique didnt give the music the same feel, soul or whathaveyou that the original off the cuff riff had.

I would personally love to know a lot more about different techniques and how to read standard notation and all that just b/c I want to know, but I dont think that its necessary to know it to get good ...so long as you keep at it and have fun.