Pinkie Stabilization?

[lpa53]

For all my 40 years of guitar playing, except when playing rhythm in a band in high school, when picking I've always stabilized my picking hand with my pinkie on the guitar's top. Just this last week I had my first lesson with a well-known fingerstylist in the area (great guy, too) and, as I expected, he mentioned the down-pinkie as something that can restrict my progress.

While I know this is bad form in classical guitar, is it also the case in steel-string fingerstyle? Are there not any good guitarists who have this "bad habit"? I'm working on not to using the anchor but so far the biggest thing I notice is not being able to attack heavily when I want to.

The teacher alo suggested I bring my thumb more forward of my other fingers, again more in the classical vein. One of the things making this easier fo him was his positioning of his SCGC guitar in a somewhat classical position, with the hollow between the bouts resting on his left knee (he's a righty, of course). I believe his Santa Cruz is a Firefly, since he mentioned it had a short scale and cedar top, but it had a cutaway so I'm not sure. It had a gorgeous mellow tone. But the thing it that its body shape makes the "classical position easier than with my dreadnought, which keeps slipping around!

Any suggestions as to how I can overcome these issues? Like buy a Firefly? Don't I wish ...

[Jeff M]

Lots of great fingerstyle players anchor their pinky.
Stefan Grossman recommends people anchor it.

It just depends what you are comfortable with.

Re; the thumb...are you having problems reaching strings with it? Is it interfering with your playing? If not, I wouldn't worry about it. If it gets to the point where it does..then adjust.

Everybody is shaped differently. This includes our hands.
Experiment...but in the end, play with what is comfortable for you.

[lpa53]

Lots of great fingerstyle players anchor their pinky.
Stefan Grossman recommends people anchor it.

It just depends what you are comfortable with.

Re; the thumb...are you having problems reaching strings with it? Is it interfering with your playing? If not, I wouldn't worry about it. If it gets to the point where it does..then adjust.

Everybody is shaped differently. This includes our hands.
Experiment...but in the end, play with what is comfortable for you.
Thanks for that link, Jeff. It makes me feel better about what I do. I think what the teacher was saying about my thumb is that when I strike with it, the followthrough tends to move inward and hit the other fingers, which it does. I looked at some other Grossman videos and found this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Em6DLGmPfc&feature=related) which shows what I believe the teacher is looking for, keeping the thumb flatter on the followthough, not bending the knuckle too much.

I suppose it never hurts to try something different and I'll give it a shot - at least during the lessons!

[unimogbert]

Paul,

Larry (ljguitar) showed me his NeckUp which he uses on everything he plays when we met in the Colorado group get together.

I bought one for myself. It's a great help at keeping the neck of the guitar elevated to achieve better ergonomics and something closer to the classical position.

[lpa53]

Paul,

Larry (ljguitar) showed me his NeckUp which he uses on everything he plays when we met in the Colorado group get together.

I bought one for myself. It's a great help at keeping the neck of the guitar elevated to achieve better ergonomics and something closer to the classical position.I've seen those spoken of before on threads and was actually thinking about that just the other day.

[ljguitar]

...While I know this is bad form in classical guitar, is it also the case in steel-string fingerstyle?
Hi Ipa...
If having the pinky touch the top is wrong, then there are some seriously good players who place their pinky on the top who are playing all-wrong...including...

Tommy Emmanuel
Laurence Juber
Chet Atkins
Pat Donohue
Pete Huttlinger
Merle Travis
Doc Watson
Doyle Dykes
Al Petteway
Thom Bresh
Martin Taylor
Tuck Andress


As a teacher, & player, as long as a person is using the pinky as a placement tool and not putting pressure on it (touching down versus leaning on it) it doesn't seem to make any difference on their capability as players.

For me touching down the pinky is much like the home row of keys used to get my hands back to the correct place on the typing keyboard. It keeps my playing hand oriented properly in relation to the soundhole.

It doesn't live there and I never put pressure on it. In fact it lifts off the top regularly when plucking or strumming.

Granted there are players who anchor or plant and lean on the pinky, and that would seem to me that it could very well inhibit proper angling and playing with the plucking/strumming hand.

[banpreso]

i never find it necessary to achor down the pinky.

and also, think about it, if you ever need your i, m, and r ringers to pluck the 3 bass strings (sometimes happens), your pinky anchor would be disrupted.

and if you are anchoring down with pressure, that means your hand is not relaxed.

as far as putting the thumb in front of the index finger, you gotta rotate your wrist, then it becomes pretty comfortable. the thing is, if your thumb and index fingers are picking 2 strings right next to each other, you don't want them to run into each other. when the thumb is in front and index in the back, they'll overlap eachother.

if you practice for a weeks, i'm sure you can alter your habits more easily than your probably thought.

[lpa53]

i never find it necessary to achor down the pinky.

and also, think about it, if you ever need your i, m, and r ringers to pluck the 3 bass strings (sometimes happens), your pinky anchor would be disrupted.

and if you are anchoring down with pressure, that means your hand is not relaxed.

as far as putting the thumb in front of the index finger, you gotta rotate your wrist, then it becomes pretty comfortable. the thing is, if your thumb and index fingers are picking 2 strings right next to each other, you don't want them to run into each other. when the thumb is in front and index in the back, they'll overlap eachother.

if you practice for a weeks, i'm sure you can alter your habits more easily than your probably thought.
I do experience fatigue in the pinkie at times so I do know it affects me. The difficult part to accept is that, with the fingerpicking I've done all my life - JT, Simon, Don Mclean - I've just never had a problem. And never found a need to pluck bass strings with anything other than the thumb either, but then that can just reflect my limited repertoire. I am working on the pinkie thing, though - the wrist rotation for the thumb? - that'll be harder.

[Brian W.]

While I know this is bad form in classical guitar, is it also the case in steel-string fingerstyle? Are there not any good guitarists who have this "bad habit"? I'm working on not to using the anchor but so far the biggest thing I notice is not being able to attack heavily when I want to.

I don’t consider pinky planting a bad habit, just different. I’ve tried it, but it feels awkward to me. I guess mainly because I use my ring finger quite a bit. I’ll often plant my palm on the other side of strings to get a flat wrist angle for staccato and palm muting. Anchoring is a useful technique imo, although the arched wrist makes for a good home position.

[Herb Hunter]

I'm not a guitar teacher but f I were teaching a beginner to play, I would discourage them from resting their right little finger on the guitar. Whether one should work to discontinue the habit once ingrained depends on whether that habit prevents one from expertly executing a desired technique.

I don't recall observing Doyle Dykes or Tommy Emmanuel anchoring their pinkies but that doesn't mean they don't. I'll be watching both play this week, possibly both of them on stage at the same time, and I'll be making it a point to notice if they are pinky anchorers or not.

[David Hilyard]

I'm not a guitar teacher but f I were teaching a beginner to play, I would discourage them from resting their right little finger on the guitar. Whether one should work to discontinue the habit once ingrained depends on whether that habit prevents one from expertly executing a desired technique.

I don't recall observing Doyle Dykes or Tommy Emmanuel anchoring their pinkies but that doesn't mean they don't. I'll be watching both play this week, possibly both of them on stage at the same time, and I'll be making it a point to notice if they are pinky anchorers or not.

Tommy anchors and says if you want to play like him, then you better anchor. I tried it, and I still don't play like him. He was wrong. :)

He'll probably play this tune at CAAS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogc9KqjBsZo

Doyle, anchoring off and on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49uBgsGogs&feature=related

[Herb Hunter]

Tommy anchors and says if you want to play like him, then you better anchor. I tried it, and I still don't play like him. He was wrong. :)

He'll probably play this tune at CAAS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogc9KqjBsZo

Doyle, anchoring off and on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49uBgsGogs&feature=related

Thanks for the clips. Now I'll be able to sit back and enjoy their performances in the next few days without having to scrutinize their right hand pinkies.

[Neal]

I don't see Tommy "anchoring" the pinky, unless I was just dazzled by the general brilliance of his playing.. he is using it as a guide in some passages.

As Larry says above, and I'll paraprase, is Anchoring and Planting are not optimal. Letting the pinky be a guide is different. Anchoring and planting are, well, permanent, and that could affect the dynamics of your playing. Some do it to great affect, others not. If you're learning from a teacher, and he instructs you to not do that, don't. Or find a teacher that's not so picky.

You can do it, it's just practice after all. I struggled with it for years until I found a teacher that insisted I not "plant"(planting and anchoring suggest a long term stay), and I followed the advice.

I don't plant on the uke anymore either, that was a tough one. I do brush, and use my fingers, pinky included, as a guide on ocassion.

You'll find you can obtain a better dynamic.

[David Hilyard]

I don't see Tommy "anchoring" the pinky, unless I was just dazzled by the general brilliance of his playing.. he is using it as a guide in some passages.

As Larry says above, and I'll paraprase, is Anchoring and Planting are not optimal. Letting the pinky be a guide is different. Anchoring and planting are, well, permanent, and that could affect the dynamics of your playing. Some do it to great affect, others not. If you're learning from a teacher, and he instructs you to not do that, don't. Or find a teacher that's not so picky.

You can do it, it's just practice after all. I struggled with it for years until I found a teacher that insisted I not "plant"(planting and anchoring suggest a long term stay), and I followed the advice.

I don't plant on the uke anymore either, that was a tough one. I do brush, and use my fingers, pinky included, as a guide on ocassion.

You'll find you can obtain a better dynamic.

A friend of mine, who has taken workshops with Tommy at Jorma Kaukonen's Fur Peace Ranch said he tells you to use the pinky to anchor. My friend resisted during the workshop and Tommy said "Look, if you want to learn how to play like I play, you need to anchor". Of course, the way Tommy plays, he's all over the place and doesn't keep his hand glued there, but he does use a pinky anchor when it's useful to him. He calls it "anchoring".

He teaches it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45vrY1Q3S7I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue3-yyVilEg&feature=related

[Neal]

By gosh he does! Just think how good he'd be if he learned the proper way! :lol:

Watching Tommy's style, it's obvious he has his own, but those basic boom-chicks are done as easily without planting. I, of course, am no Tommy E.

[David Hilyard]

By gosh he does! Just think how good he'd be if he learned the proper way! :lol:

Watching Tommy's style, it's obvious he has his own, but those basic boom-chicks are done as easily without planting. I, of course, am no Tommy E.

Hi Neal.

I thought about this a bit and wondered if there is any connection between how much nail is used and anchoring. Using just Larry's list of player's that anchor, more than half use little or no nail when playing. I wonder if the anchor helps bring out the sound with less nail? More support for a heavier attack?

Chet used some nail, and anchored only sometimes, depending on the style of music he was playing. Al Petteway uses quite a bit of nail and sometimes anchors, again, depending on the tune. Doyle and Pete have acrylic nails and they anchor quite a bit, but not always. Tommy, Laurence, Pat, Merle, Doc, Thom, Martin and Tuck use just a little nail, but not much, if any. They all use an anchor most of the time. Maybe that extra support gives a little more "umph" to the attack when there is less nail to do it. Force up, against a fulcrum?

I didn't think I used a pinky support at all, when I play, and have said that. One of my friends watched me play a tune once and said "There! You're anchoring!" Who knew? It was an alternating bass tune with a heavy groove. It worked, for that tune.

Use it when it's called for. It's not limiting, until it is.

[Neal]

I think that's the perfect answer David. Use it when called for, and especially "it's not limiting until it is". As I watch a lot of these guys, that's just what they do.

[Brian W.]

I thought about this a bit and wondered if there is any connection between how much nail is used and anchoring. Using just Larry's list of player's that anchor, more than half use little or no nail when playing. I wonder if the anchor helps bring out the sound with less nail? More support for a heavier attack?

Kelly Joe Phelps . . . IIRC another pinky planter with short or no nails.

[oldrocker]

I don’t consider pinky planting a bad habit, just different. I’ve tried it, but it feels awkward to me. I guess mainly because I use my ring finger quite a bit. I’ll often plant my palm on the other side of strings to get a flat wrist angle for staccato and palm muting. Anchoring is a useful technique imo, although the arched wrist makes for a good home position.

I have done the same thing for years, I think probably I learned that way because I have short fingers and planting my pinky puts some strain on my pinky and doesn't give my other 4 fingers a good angle....somewhat lightly resting the heel of my hand on the saddle or strings above the saddle serves to both anchor my fingers and let me attain a good angle of attack. However, a couple of years ago I deliberately started "hovering" and not using this method. I've gotten so used to it that that's about all I do. It gives me a better angle of attack for my 4 playing fingers, plus it gives me freedom to move my hand up and down from near the bridge to the fretboard to get different tonal effects. It took a while to get use to not having the anchoring reference point but I'm a better player now and the angle of attack allows me to play soft or hard to vary my volume as well.

[daniel1703]

A friend of mine, who has taken workshops with Tommy at Jorma Kaukonen's Fur Peace Ranch said he tells you to use the pinky to anchor. My friend resisted during the workshop and Tommy said "Look, if you want to learn how to play like I play, you need to anchor". Of course, the way Tommy plays, he's all over the place and doesn't keep his hand glued there, but he does use a pinky anchor when it's useful to him. He calls it "anchoring".

He teaches it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45vrY1Q3S7I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue3-yyVilEg&feature=related

I noticed that his pinkie was actually 'jumping' around. It's not really anchored dead on one spot. I'm guessing it might be a measure for him to position his right hand especially when palm muting.

[lpa53]

Well, when I started this thread I was probably venting because I didn't want to admit I'd been "wrong" all these years and I certainly didn't expect a big response. But I've learned a lot in reading the great posts here and watching the videos.

I do find that my "anchoring" is more than what I've seen in most of the videos. The pinkie sits in one place and there is force on it such that sometimes I even notice fatigue in it. I've even felt it lock! You can see how stationary it is in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCcZc_7VQhk).

I also can see that the anchoring limits the ability to roam around the body of the guitar for different tones. I even noticed this week that on one of my guitars with a larger soundhole my anchoring was forcing my hand even further towards the bridge, and on another whose pickguard is further away from the soundhole than I'm used to, the anchoring position was a real stretch.

When trying to float my hand what I miss most at this point is control over the power of the attack while trying to keep my hand in position. But obviously that can be overcome through practice and if I want to try something new I just need to "suck it up" and give it a shot.

[David Hilyard]

I noticed that his pinkie was actually 'jumping' around. It's not really anchored dead on one spot. I'm guessing it might be a measure for him to position his right hand especially when palm muting.

Yeah, I know. I think folks are taking the term too literally. Tommy himself calls it "anchoring" and not some other term like "guiding" or "stabilizing". And he's clear about using it. Lots of folks use the pinky as a form of finding the strings and keeping the hand more or less located when they are playing a passage, moving around on stage, keeping a groove going, etc. Most call it an "anchor". But it's not like dropping one onto the top of the guitar and not moving from there. It comes and goes, as needed. It's still anchoring. But it's really just touching the surface as a place finder. "Anchor" is the common term for this.

[mesa]

I did what came natural....for me that was not anchoring the pinky.

[mmmaak]

Physically, due to the way our muscles and tendons are configured, the picking hand is simply much more relaxed when the pinky is not planted (try it). Sure, there are many great players who "plant", but my guess is most of them use it more out of habit than as a "crutch" (also, I think there are certain musical styles that sound "better" when played with a planted pinky). My 2 cents....if you can, free it; if you can't, don't sweat it :)

[Herb Hunter]

I just got back from the CAAS Convention. There, someone in the audience asked, John McClellan, the pragmatic head of classical guitar studies at the Webster University, about pinky anchoring. McClellan responded that it is better to learn not to rely on it while acknowledging that some songs such as certain Chet style arrangements with alternating bass lines may require them. He believes one should learn to play without the so-called bad habits but be free to use any of them when the music demands them.

[Ryler]

Herb,

That is a good answer to that question.

[mmmaak]

He believes one should learn to play without the so-called bad habits but be free to use any of them when the music demands them.
Good point. I think it often comes back to the "tool vs crutch" principle :)

[815C]

If you've been playing one way for 40 years, it may take awhile to learn a new technique. The good part is, you don't have to throw your old technique out.

I've been spending the last 4 years working on a new right hand flat picking technique (I've been playing 40 years this December). Its taken awhile to get the new technique feeling natural, but I'm glad I've done it. I can still play the old way too - allowing to flip back and forth between the 2 techniques.

If you really want to master the new technique, my advice would be to set aside some time each day to play using the new technique - but play in super slow motion with your hands totally relaxed.

[tabl10s]

For all my 40 years of guitar playing, except when playing rhythm in a band in high school, when picking I've always stabilized my picking hand with my pinkie on the guitar's top. Just this last week I had my first lesson with a well-known fingerstylist in the area (great guy, too) and, as I expected, he mentioned the down-pinkie as something that can restrict my progress.

While I know this is bad form in classical guitar, is it also the case in steel-string fingerstyle? Are there not any good guitarists who have this "bad habit"? I'm working on not to using the anchor but so far the biggest thing I notice is not being able to attack heavily when I want to.

The teacher alo suggested I bring my thumb more forward of my other fingers, again more in the classical vein. One of the things making this easier fo him was his positioning of his SCGC guitar in a somewhat classical position, with the hollow between the bouts resting on his left knee (he's a righty, of course). I believe his Santa Cruz is a Firefly, since he mentioned it had a short scale and cedar top, but it had a cutaway so I'm not sure. It had a gorgeous mellow tone. But the thing it that its body shape makes the "classical position easier than with my dreadnought, which keeps slipping around!

Any suggestions as to how I can overcome these issues? Like buy a Firefly? Don't I wish ...

Andy Mckee does the thumb like you do and it's funky looking. It looks as though the thumb is whipping back-n-forth and also doesn't seem very efficient.

[Fingerstylist]

Larry, does Huttlinger sometimes use a pinky anchor? In my Essential Exercises for Fingerstyle Guitar he recommends against it. Besides restricting your hand, he says it takes tone away from the top of the guitar. Knowing me, I probably misunderstood him :)