Need Help - Pierre Bensusan Crazy Strech

[banpreso]

ok, ok. i don't expect to be able to do it tomorrow, but right now i'm not even conviced that it's possible for me! i need some encouragement and advice from the fine folks here regarding the super strech chords of pierre bensusan.

let's say... this chord, capo 2nd fret: 0 4 2 4 7 0 (treble to bass)

i have pierre's book and all, but still, the strech between the ring finger and pinky just seemed impossible.

please help! please tell me this is possible for me, maybe not tomorrow, but sometime down the road!

thanks.

[Doug Young]

What tune is that from? it doesn't seem like something I've run into with Pierre. he does have a big stretch between his 3rd and 4th fingers, but this seems a bit extreme

[Bryan T]

ok, ok. i don't expect to be able to do it tomorrow, but right now i'm not even conviced that it's possible for me! i need some encouragement and advice from the fine folks here regarding the super strech chords of pierre bensusan.

let's say... this chord, capo 2nd fret: 0 4 2 4 7 0 (treble to bass)

i have pierre's book and all, but still, the strech between the ring finger and pinky just seemed impossible.

please help! please tell me this is possible for me, maybe not tomorrow, but sometime down the road!

thanks.

That is a big stretch. Does the high string need to be open?

I'd play it: 042452 (EDIT - This is incorrect, as I misread the original post. The correct version is in my post below.)

We spent a lot of time working on stretching when I studied with him. He certainly has a wide reach. 1357xx is pretty easy for him.

Bryan

[wagtail]

What were your stretching exercises like?

[Bryan T]

What were your stretching exercises like?

We'd start up near the 12th fret with the fingers on adjacent frets. Then we'd add a one fret gap between the index and middle. Then add a one fret gap between the middle and ring. Then a one fret gap between the ring and pinky. We'd keep all of the non-moving fingers on the neck. Then we'd move the pattern down the neck until we ended up with 1357xx.

A quick example (not exactly what we did, but similar) would be:

4567xx
3567xx
2467xx
1357xx

Pretty tough for some of us.

[banpreso]

the chord is used in the middle part of wuwei, just once.

even if i don't fret down the 7th fret, and leave that open, it still sounds pretty nice, but he's got more of those strech chords on other songs of his i like, so i really would like to learn to nail them.

how do you guys practice for streches? can you guys grab the 3rd chord in L'Alchimiste? (something like 5 x 3 2 3 0)

[Bryan T]

even if i don't fret down the 7th fret, and leave that open, it still sounds pretty nice,

If you fret it my way, then you still get all of the notes.

[banpreso]

If you fret it my way, then you still get all of the notes.

i'll go home and give that a try. he plays that chord as a long arpeggio, so order of notes does matter some what, but i'll give it a shot, and practice that stretching exercise at the same time.

right now i'm not even that close in getting the chord, but maybe i'll get there someday. i used to have problem grabbing 0 0 1 2 2 4 in standard tuning, but not anymore, so maybe this can also be conquered.

[TBman]

That's a tough song, generally for my fat fingers. You can always move the capo up another fret, LOL.

[mmmaak]

let's say... this chord, capo 2nd fret: 0 4 2 4 7 0 (treble to bass)

EDIT: Nevermind, I just realized I read the chord backwards (you used non-standard notation)!. Certain things are simply physically impossible without having the correct physique, i.e. longer fingers. You might just have to compromise by leaving some strings out or fretting them sequentially.

can you guys grab the 3rd chord in L'Alchimiste? (something like 5 x 3 2 3 0)
I can, though I can't remember what it was :D
For this particular chord (and many others, actually), assuming you have the required flexibility, the trick is positioning/rotating your arm/wrist until the fingerings become viable. I'll see if I can take a picture for you when I get back from work.

As to your question about stretches, assuming you have small hands like I do, some fingerings can be achieved by

(a) using the thumb from "over" the fretboard, e.g. 4x6767
(b) barring across two frets, e.g. 4x7675 (drop D)
(c) fretting (as opposed to barring) two strings with one finger, e.g. 244220
(d) playing in the classical position (this makes a huge difference for me)

(the above are bass->treble, as per standard chord notation)

[rick-slo]

Some people just naturally have bigger hands and a greater hand stretch than you. With practice you can increase your reach only so much without starting to damage your hand. It's not worth it.

Look for work arounds. In measure thirty nine this particular passage could be done effectively and still sound good via half barre on the 2nd fret and pull off from 4 to 2 on the fourth string:

-------0------------------
----------4---------------
-------------2------------
----------------4---2-----
--------------------------
------------------------0-

[Will Kirk]

I practice for stretches and teach my students to do the following. using only the pinky and index finger

E--4-------------
A----7-----------
D------4---------
G--------7-------
B----------4-----
E------------7---

The biggest thing with long reaches is that good hand position helps tremendously. If you're thumb is above the neck you'll have a much harder time with long reaches as opposed to if you have your thumb in a good position behind the neck, almost in the exact center

[Bryan T]

I just realized that you notated the chord backwards from convention. I glossed over where you wrote "treble to bass."


let's say... this chord, capo 2nd fret: 0 4 2 4 7 0 (treble to bass)

My suggested fretting wouldn't work for that.

That second fret note would work as an open string and you could move the fourth fret on the second string to the sixth fret of the third.

In your notation, it would me like this: 006470

Conventionally: 074600

Bryan

[mmmaak]

I just realized that you notated the chord backwards from convention. I glossed over where you wrote "treble to bass."

ahhhh, me too. Previous post edited.

[banpreso]

lol guys, sorry for having the chords backward. thanks for all the additional input

hey mak, when you grab that chord, 5 x 3 2 3 0, do you have really short nails on your ring finger? the more i rotate my wrist to get the pinky fretted, the more the ring finger gets rotated out of position, to a point i can fret it cleanly. you know what i'm talking about? the chord is completely fine without fretting the ring finger, it's that finger that gives me the most trouble :(

[mmmaak]

hey mak, when you grab that chord, 5 x 3 2 3 0, do you have really short nails on your ring finger? the more i rotate my wrist to get the pinky fretted, the more the ring finger gets rotated out of position, to a point i can fret it cleanly. you know what i'm talking about? the chord is completely fine without fretting the ring finger, it's that finger that gives me the most trouble :(

Yes, I always keep my fretting-hand nails as short as possible. I find it hard to play anything cleanly otherwise. Maybe you should clip them and then try again? :)

I'll see if my girlfriend can snap a picture for me now. You sure 5x3230 is the chord? Bass to treble, right?

[mmmaak]

OK, here it is:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YCO9tsNQ5yc/SkJNur6Zc_I/AAAAAAAABOc/17-k6jacHnA/s400/DSC02367.JPG

Obviously, how much you need to "rotate" depends on your finger lengths. Mine are pretty short, hence the contorted position :sick:

Someone with a longer pinky could probably achieve a more natural arc, hence less need for rotation to clear the treble strings.

[banpreso]

OK, here it is:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YCO9tsNQ5yc/SkJNur6Zc_I/AAAAAAAABOc/17-k6jacHnA/s400/DSC02367.JPG

Obviously, how much you need to "rotate" depends on your finger lengths. Mine are pretty short, hence the contorted position :sick:

Someone with a longer pinky could probably achieve a more natural arc, hence less need for rotation to clear the treble strings.

that looks crazy! :lol:

thanks for the picture!

[usb_chord]

Yikes mmak! :eek: Dont hurt yourself! :guitar:

[mmmaak]

Yikes mmak! :eek: Dont hurt yourself! :guitar:

That ain't so bad, Brian. I find this one, while less of a stretch, much more taxing on the arm muscles:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_YCO9tsNQ5yc/SkJZa-Ix6DI/AAAAAAAABO4/SZU1fI1isPg/s400/DSC02368.JPG

ahhhh, the things we do to play a white man-scaled instrument :D

[rick-slo]

You sure 5x3230 is the chord? Bass to treble, right?
The chord in question in Wu Wei is 074240 bass to treble and to let ring so stretch that pinky another fret. :) Ain't going to happen.

[David Hilyard]

This may or may not be of help. May just be discouraging. :)

Pierre playing "Wu Wei" at The Freight and Salvage in 1995. He is using a capo, so that shortens the stretches a bit. I don't know if the chord in question is at 1:14 or not, but that's a stretch. The man is not human. Who can play like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p6WXav_ZII

It's also in this wonderful version, at 1:14. He plants and then stretches for the bass note by rotating. Nicely played version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMT5aoqLehw&feature=related

[banpreso]

The chord in question in Wu Wei is 074240 bass to treble and to let ring so stretch that pinky another fret. :) Ain't going to happen.

you're right about wuwei's chord

mak was showing a chord from L'Alchimiste, which is 5x3230


i just watched a few more youtube players doing the 074240 strech. those who are able to do it all have the unique ability to reach their pinky out REALLY far...

i noticed that my left hand pinky is about 5mm longer than the right pinky... so maybe if i keep on playing guitar it'll grow another 5mm and i'll be able to do it then...

[Bryan T]

you're right about wuwei's chord

mak was showing a chord from L'Alchimiste, which is 5x3230


i just watched a few more youtube players doing the 074240 strech. those who are able to do it all have the unique ability to reach their pinky out REALLY far...

i noticed that my left hand pinky is about 5mm longer than the right pinky... so maybe if i keep on playing guitar it'll grow another 5mm and i'll be able to do it then...

I've noticed that it isn't as much about finger length as it is flexibility. I've seen players with short, pudgy fingers who can do amazing stretches because they have a lot of flexibility. The kind of exercises that I mentioned above will improve that . . . but don't hurt yourself! Build up to it slowly over time.

Bryan

[Doug Young]

I had a very interesting discussion with Muriel Anderson recently (I interviewed her for the August 2009 Acoustic Guitar, just hitting the streets). This part of the discussion didn't make the article, but I asked her about her ability to make long stretches, being a tiny lady as she is. We compared hand size, and the tips of her fingers only came to about my 1st knuckle joint! So I have at least 3/4 of an inch on her as far as finger length, yet she easily makes stretches that I would have trouble with. She showed me how simple changes in hand position, and relaxing make it possible.

The chord in question is a good reminder, I have never tried that tune, and on first try, there was no way I could see myself fingering that chord, and wasn't even sure how Pierre would do it. But after seeing the videos David posted, I just tried it again, and it's certainly possible. Probably won't be my favorite chord, but I can get it by shifting my hand the way the guy does on the 2nd video. Not very comfortable, but maybe with some practice...

[rick-slo]

I had a very interesting discussion with Muriel Anderson recently (I interviewed her for the August 2009 Acoustic Guitar, just hitting the streets). This part of the discussion didn't make the article, but I asked her about her ability to make long stretches, being a tiny lady as she is. We compared hand size, and the tips of her fingers only came to about my 1st knuckle joint! So I have at least 3/4 of an inch on her as far as finger length, yet she easily makes stretches that I would have trouble with. She showed me how simple changes in hand position, and relaxing make it possible.

The chord in question is a good reminder, I have never tried that tune, and on first try, there was no way I could see myself fingering that chord, and wasn't even sure how Pierre would do it. But after seeing the videos David posted, I just tried it again, and it's certainly possible. Probably won't be my favorite chord, but I can get it by shifting my hand the way the guy does on the 2nd video. Not very comfortable, but maybe with some practice...
Doug, some things are doable with practice and some just are not. With variations in hand size, finger stretch and flexibility of tendons some people could do this particular stretch with ease and some never could with all the practice in the world. My point was that if it is causing hand pain don't force yourself into tendinitis, carpel tunnel or some other ailment. Sometimes it is smarter to find a work around.

[Doug Young]

My point was that if it is causing hand pain don't force yourself into tendinitis, carpel tunnel or some other ailment. Sometimes it is smarter to find a work around.

Absolutely, never do anything that causes hand pain. I think every Bensusan tune I've tried, I've ended up with at least one workaround. There's a point, where you just want to play the tune and dropping a note somewhere's not going to be a deal breaker, compared to hurting yourself.

But I think there are different ways to approach fingering issues, and some things are more doable than they first appear. I wish I could demonstrate what Muriel showed me, it was very much "if you try it that way, it's impossible, if you do it this way, it's easy". In no way was she proposing anything that causes pain, she was showing the opposite, total relaxation and ease. My point was that it's not all about brute force (in fact, DON'T do that, you'll hurt yourself) or stretching, even tho Pierre emphasizes stretching exercises. Sometimes it's about a different motion or position, which I think the videos David posted demonstrate pretty well. Heck, I even ran into a player once who was able to get those impossible bass notes by using his nose :-)

[mmmaak]

The chord in question in Wu Wei is 074240 bass to treble and to let ring so stretch that pinky another fret. :) Ain't going to happen.

Actually, I was demonstrating the chord from L'Alchemiste for Jun.

EDIT: OK, nevermind. I see he replied to you in his previous post already ;)

I've noticed that it isn't as much about finger length as it is flexibility. I've seen players with short, pudgy fingers who can do amazing stretches because they have a lot of flexibility. The kind of exercises that I mentioned above will improve that . . . but don't hurt yourself! Build up to it slowly over time.

I agree, but there's still a very real physical limitation for people with small hands/short fingers. No amount of (humane) stretching can take us past that limit. That's not to say we can't come up with our own arrangements, of course :)

[banpreso]

here's a little update. after working one some streching (not a whole lot to be honest), i can comfortably fret 024260. so 024270 seems to be doable, with a bit more practice...