Internal mic recommendations

[Dan B]

Hi,

I was planning to supplement my K&K PWM passive with an internal mic. I was going to get the K&K internal condenser, but wondered if there's anything else I should be looking at.

I've heard good things about the Jo Mills mic (though no longer available and 2x the price of the K&K mic) and als the Pendulum modded AKG C416 (x3 price of the K&K). Since I'm after at least two mics (not in the same guitar!), price/performance ratio is, sadly, a factor.

Any experience? Anything else I should be looking at?

Thanks,

Dan

[alohachris]

Aloha,

You're on the right track in your search for a better internal mic.

The modded AKG 416 is what I put in my Trinity system in three guitars. K&K's mics aren't so great. What makes the 416 (which is no longer made but can be bought through Greg at Pendulum) so great is that it is a hypercardioid mic that sounds great.

Although no internal mic will sound as good as an external, the 416 comes close because, as a hyper, it doesn't allow the box boominess overtones to bleed in as much as omnis. AKG's replacement 516 is a cardioid that sounds great also, but not as good as the hypercardioid 416.

It's been many years since Joe Mills has made any mics. And it's becoming rarer to find them on ebay. It was a great souding omni internal mic. But forget it, he's gone. Between the two, I liked the 416, which is why I got three modded ones from Greg.

Of course, there are other small condensers that people talk about. The Countryman comes up with nice reviews. And Audix makes one that's now very popular (part of the Magmic combo).

Try to get a hyper if possible for reasons stated above.

I can honestly say that my 416's never feedback. The mini K&K "goes off" after my vocal mics do, but not the AKG. But that's almost never now. The AKG 416 mic sounds really great - even all by itself without the K&K really.

Check 'em all out. But I wouldn't use anything but at 416 at this point.

Hope this helps.

alohachris

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Dan B

Hi,

I was planning to supplement my K&K PWM passive with an internal mic. I was going to get the K&K internal condenser, but wondered if there's anything else I should be looking at.

I've heard good things about the Jo Mills mic (though no longer available and 2x the price of the K&K mic) and als the Pendulum modded AKG C416 (x3 price of the K&K). Since I'm after at least two mics (not in the same guitar!), price/performance ratio is, sadly, a factor.

Any experience? Anything else I should be looking at?

Thanks,

Dan

I've used, owned or tried most of what is available. The Joe Mills and the AKG 416L are the best of the lot. I would add a DPA 406x to the list too, although you have to adjust some things to use one as an internal mic. That being said, an external small or medium diaphragm condenser mic, if you can use one in your situation, is a better choice.

[hann]

looks pretty cool.. how would we be able to couple the 416 and PWM in a guitar? is there alot of rewiring that would need to be done?

it's rather tempting but i know i'd have to get a blender as well eh..

[Dan B]

Thanks for the replies. Very helpful.

The C416 is temping (though not cheap). Any comments on the Pendulum modded C416 vs the standard one? For me (based in the UK), it looks like the Pendulum modded one would cost about double the standard one!

I'm also wondering whether I shouldn't just conceed that an external mic is preferable! Naturally, that's what I use for recording. I have a few lying around that would work: 2x Studio Projects C4s (small dia), 1 x AT4033a (large dia) and 2 x CAD M179 multipattern (large dia). I play seated, so movements not a problem.

Advantage: better sound. Disadvantage: more kit to carry, longer set up times (and not really an option for open mics, etc, where just need to get on and off quickly).

I guess I could use a cheaper solution, like the Trinity mic, for those compromise situations.

Dilemmas, dilemmas!

Whilst I thrash this out in my head, more comments welcome!

Cheers,

Dan

[drive-south]

Since I play dozens of differant instruments, a single external mic is best for me. I've used Shure SM57's and AKG C1000S. Are there any other mics out there I should be trying that resist feedback and sound great?

[Dan B]

Thanks for the replies.

I've very tempted by the AKG C416. From alohachris's helpful comments, it looks as if this one is preferable to the new C516.

I assume there no convenient way of mounting these externally in a way that doesn't damage the guitar, so I could just buy one and use it on several guitars?

Any advice on mounting it and wiring it up for internal use? It'd have to be powered externally (something like the DTAR Solstice) on just one pin (ring of a TRS plug); the tip would be for my other pickup (passive K&K PWM). AKG say you can't do this, but it seems that several people are - just wondering how to go about it!

Thanks,

Dan

[hann]

any more affordable mics? haha gosh.. was stunned at the price!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Dan B

...I was planning to supplement my K&K PWM passive with an internal mic. I was going to get the K&K internal condenser, but wondered if there's anything else I should be looking at.

Hi Dan...
The Joe Mills were great - wish they were still available. I've used three different dual source rigs with mics - a Fishman, an LRBaggs, and the current K&K.

Of the three the LRBaggs and K&K are equal in quality and ease of use. I like both, and would feel comfortable with recommending either.

Are there better ones out there? Probably, but I'm not sure I could readily hear and appreciate the differences. The quality of the small diaphragm mics used by K&K and Baggs are quite high. You are not going to reproduce the same kind of tone as a $2000 studio mic, especially given that the mic is inside the guitar.

But it will bring new nuances to the sound when blended that make the guitar sound more natural.

Doug Young's site has some recordings of the internal mics alone - it was helpful to me when choosing the K&K dual source for my current rigs three years back.

Pickup tests - click

Hope this helps...

[alohachris]

Aloha,

I was lucky to find two unused Pendulum-modded 416s on Ebay for a great price a couple years back. I also bought one from Greg @ Pendulum Audio.

You should check out the Pendulum Audio site and see what they have to say about their mod, price and availability of 416 or 516. Ask for Greg - a true genius and so accessible!

The mod shortens the mic's flexible arm and opens up (equalizes) the back of the mic for better sound and use inside a guitar. It also shims the mount out from the guitar sides enough to clear any side braces that could interfere with the arm's placement.

The mod allows you to mount the mic's mount - using double stick tape - anywhere on the bottom side of the lower guitar bout (my mic head faces the treble strings and is about an inch below the top, at 4 o'clock just 1" inside the soundhole.

If you choose an 1/8" connector instead of soldering the mic lead to the pickup's "ring" lead (that's where most mics are soldered to), you can simply unhook the lead and snap the whole mic arm and mount out of it's side holder for safer air travel, etc.

You need a good stereo jack out for soldering, although the K&K jacks are fine with their mini Western pickups. You don't have to modify your guitar at all except for drilling the endpin hole to accomodate the jack and super gluing on the three pickup transducers to the bridgeplate, minor (the instructions from K&K are great). And you don't need any batteries to replace or to float around if knocked loose.

By the way, the new AKG 516 should work very well indeed and sound great. Plus, you can buy 'em new. The 416 has been discontinued although ask Greg at Pendulum if he has any. The extra cost or the mod from Pendulum really is worth it in my opinion.

First check out the Pendulum Audio site. They have a sheet on the mod and installation.

The 416 sounds so good in my small bodied koa guitars, with minimal mid range EQing, that I actually use it alone without the pickup sometimes. Mics are still the best amplifiers of natural acoustic guitar sound. Externals are best, but that 416 hypercardioid is something else.

You need 48V phantom power -from a mixer or preamp - to run the akg small condensers. Most mixers and some amps offer it today. CHeck out the voltage on your phantom - it needs to be 48V!

Good Luck!
alohachris

[hann]

hey larry,

so the silver bullets would probably be more than good enough to use as an add-on to the K&K yes? they do seem more affordable than the AKG mics

and I'm betting i don't need to do any modding eh? seems like the simplest solution!
So would i need the bullet with the preamp or without? apparently I can buy with or without... i'd prob do the soldering onto the ring of the existing PWM in my guitar.

it says it's a soft cardioid though.. aren't most high end internal mics super or hyper cardioid? is a normal cardioid disadvantagous?

[sdelsolray]

The K&K Silver Bullet is serviceable. A bit spitty and harsh on the high end. If you buy it separate it comes with a mounting stalk and a neat little XLR to TS converter box that will convert 48v balanced phantom power to unbalanced 9v bias power (which is what the mic works with well).

Polar patterns and internal mics create an interesting quandary. While cardioid and hypercardiod patterns are directional, they exhibit proximity effect. Omni mics pick up from every direction but do not have a proximity effect.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by hann

...so the silver bullets would probably be more than good enough to use as an add-on to the K&K yes? they do seem more affordable than the AKG mics
...and I'm betting i don't need to do any modding eh? seems like the simplest solution!

Hi Hann...
Yes, the K&K mic is more than good enough for me.

Any advantage that might (and I did choose that word carefully) gain with an uber-expensive internal mic, would likely be offset by interferences in real life. I (we) play in the real world - which means that there are usually people making noise, or holding conversation, or coffee grinders running, or kids running through the park or other people singing along most of the time I'm playing.

Were I fortunate enough to have a long-term solo gig with an ultra-sophisticated and very quiet audience, I might invest in an improved rig.

Dual source rigs with internal mics are superior to a solo pickup, and yet none of them will sound like an external mic, nor like the guitar - not even close. They sound like you crawled inside your guitar and are listening from the inside of the box...hence the optimum recommended placement of the K&K mics.

The K&Ks are on a gooseneck and I find that placement makes a difference on the tone picked up. Thinking I could improve on Dieter's plan, I've moved them around quite a bit to arrive at the most guitar-like tone I can achieve, and all of them are now right basically positioned where Dieter prints the picture in his instructions.

I keep the one in my Olson nearly level with the top of the guitar, an inch under the 2nd string, and it produces a fat and full sound, not at all harsh...unless I speak into it...and I use an external a mic for singing.

I shape the internal mic tone with a bit more low end, and the pickup tone with less bass. Both have a slight cut in the mids, and slight boost in the highs...and the blend is very much like the sound of the actual guitar which is my reason for using dual source rigs. I run 50/50 mic to pickup ratio.

[Dan B]

Thanks for all the responses - most helpful!

Price wise, at least in the UK, the best price I can find on an AKG C416 (C516 is similarly priced) is about double the K&K mic in the US. By the time you add international postage, duty, tax, etc, there's not a vast difference. The Pendulum mod, however, adds very significantly to the cost.

Since I was considering adding internal mics to up to 3 guitars, it's all starting to look quite pricey. Added to which I'd need an external blending preamp capable of supplying TS bias phantom power to the mic with separate eq pre-blend (and possible post-blend parametic/notch filetering). Not to mention reverb and some other tricks.

So I'm going to try things with my studio equipment and see if I can use that live. Laptop and RME FF400 interface to handle all effects and blending duties : it can take two instrument inputs or phantom power a normal mic (but not one mounted in a guitar).

I've also just discovered that there is a way of clamping external mics (which I already own) to the guitar using an ExplorAudio H-Clamp. This should, I hope, sound better than an internal mic. I'd probably use a Studio Project C4 (cardiod SD small pencil condenser) or a CAD M179 (large dia multipattern - most likely somewhere between hypercardiod and cardiod). Again, it's not as elegant a solution, but it's the cheapest since it would be transferable across all my guitars). If that doesn't work. Hopefully it'll sound the best too.

The downside is the laptop is heavy and needs to be plugged in, as does the interface, so it's not a quick setup and easily portable solution. Similarly the mic needes to be clamped on and positioned (or re-clamped and re-positioned) for each guitar. Still, probably better than carting round several preamps and rack units and the cost of all those internal mics.

If it really is too impractical (if you're playing an open mic, that's a lot of gear!), I'll probably plump for the C416. Whether they'll work ok without modification, I'm not sure!

One further question: presumable in terms of taking out the C416, you need to take the strings off (problematic if you have, as my McIlroy does, a pinless bridge)? I assume there's no way of mounting a C416 externally using some kind of clip, at least not without using something like the H-clamp?

Will report on progress with the laptop once I've received the H-clamp and given it a go.

[Dan B]

As for other more affordable mics, there's the K&K and highlander mics. I've no experience of either, and haven't heard any comments on the highlander ones ... yet (hint!